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Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

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411–420 of 421 posts

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#411
post #380
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly. That's not a good reason to let people drive high or drunk though.

It would be a good reason to put effort into a "breath test for sleep" before other "breath test for X" methods / devices.

It would be a good reason to test for actual impairment with a clearly defined set of behaviors or lack thereof that indicate impairment.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#412

A given level of THC affects some a lot more than others. There are people who feel extremely "high" with 20 milligrams, and others who feel nothing. I do not believe you have a solution to this problem. The only thing a police officer should be permitted to do is give a field sobriety test. These devices are going to create more problems than they solve.

Field sobriety tests are far worse than something objective like this. If a cop has it in for you, you are going to fail the sobriety test regardless of how impaired you actually are.

You can define clearly the behaviors (or lack thereof) that indicate impairment. You can make it mandatory to record these tests in case you go to court. These values spit out by the breathalyzers are arbitrary and they do not take any other and crucial factors into account.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#413
post #99
post #19

I remember reading a story about a Grandmother who ate a strong pot brownie everyday for medical reasons and it had little noticeable effect on her. We know there's a direct correlation between alcohol levels and driving impairment, but I've not seen evidence for this link with THC. Are there studies that have found this? (Please forgive my ignorance...) If someone uses X amount of marijuana (what this tech can estab…

As a few people have mentioned already, there really is not a foolproof correlation between "amount taken" and "degree of impairment" for any drug. Even for alcohol, frequent alcohol users can build up significant tolerance. In general, blood concentrations for THC are pretty good at identifying impairment for infrequent users (greater than 90% predictive in some studies), but are very inaccurate for frequent users w…

> are very inaccurate for frequent users with a built up tolerance.

Emphasis on this.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raise a good point. Interestingly, your comments run contrary to what a lot of law enforcement officers have said to us. In general, the police are hyper vigilant about buying only devices that are independently validated to be very accurate. Every conversation we have had has eventually lead to "is it NHTSA approved?". The reason for this need for third party validation is that the police are incredibly court ro…

I admire what you're doing, and hope you can adhere to scientific integrity while developing and selling your product, but that simply isn't true. At least in Washington state. A few years ago Washington State purchased a whole bunch of Draeger 9510 (alcohol breathalyzer) units without ever having tested them. After two years of sitting unused, the warranties were going to expire and they finally got around to testin…

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Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even understand how this is a question in anyone's mind.

Because studies show that Marijuana results in no functional impairment in test courses? Maybe you should learn to trust data and science rather than just your preheld beliefs that aren't necessarily rooted in sound logic or reasoning. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722956/#S3titl...

Have you never seen anyone super stoned before? What studies do you even need beyond that? Yeah there is a scale before people shouldn't be driving, and this device will help enforce that line. It may take time and work, but better than nothing.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#416
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think it's utterly disgusting that people are allowed to operate what are essentially giant weapons in public with extremely minimal testing or training, and with minimal limits on alcohol usage. I think it's totally reasonable to ask people to give up some of the rights they'd normally have, when those people want to operate heavy machinery in public. My understanding is that GA pilots are not allowed t…

It takes between 1 - 3 hours for a single mixed drink or pint of beer to be metabolized. As a starting point I think you will agree that someone who has a BAC of zero ought to be able to drive. The majority of drunk driving accidents are the result of people that are plowed. More disturbing by far those who ARE caught and jailed have driven hundreds of thousands of miles drunk as a skunk before actually getting taken…

>As a starting point I think you will agree that someone who has a BAC of zero ought to be able to drive.

Not if they are tired or hungover. I mean, I don't think people should drive when they are tired for other reasons, either. It's a dangerous thing, and something you should only do when you are at your best.

Alcohol is just an easy target (and an important target) because it both degrades your actual ability, while at the same time, increasing your opinion of your ability. Because of that second effect, it's especially difficult to tell when you have had too much to drive... because one of the common side effects of alcohol is an increase in confidence.

It should be difficult to drive, and it should be easy to lose the ability to drive.

>Instead of tightening already reasonable standards to ridiculous levels we would save vastly more lives by actually enforcing the laws we have effectively.

eh, we already have rules against driving tired. they just lack an objective test.

I think that if you think you can operate a motor vehicle or a gun in public at 0.06, you are not being nearly careful enough. (And I suspect the additional confidence that alcohol gives you might actually contribute much to accident rates. I know I certainly feel more confident one drink in, and confidence is deadly when you are operating weapons or heavy machinery around other people.)

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because studies show that Marijuana results in no functional impairment in test courses? Maybe you should learn to trust data and science rather than just your preheld beliefs that aren't necessarily rooted in sound logic or reasoning. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722956/#S3titl...

Have you never seen anyone super stoned before? What studies do you even need beyond that? Yeah there is a scale before people shouldn't be driving, and this device will help enforce that line. It may take time and work, but better than nothing.

Once again, your personal experience and anecdotes aren't necessarily reflective of reality. Personal anecdotes are the worst form of evidence there is. Read the actual study, so that you may learn something. Your miniscule personal experience is in no way rigorous.

The study contradicts your assertions and does so in a rigorous controlled study. Obviously that holds more weight than your anecdotes or statements that have no empirical or logical basis.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#418
post #4

Sounds like it’s well-intentioned, but I’m afraid that given the incentives of all parties involved here, and the complexity of the technology, there will be a lot of false positives. It’s obvious that the police will want a device that produces more convictions, no point in disputing that. I’m wondering if you can elaborate on what incentives your company has to produce accurate devices, against your customer’s unst…

"It’s obvious that the police will want a device that produces more convictions, no point in disputing that." Uh, why couldn't we talk about it as adults? OP's answer below is excellent. Police want a device that will make their job most effective and profitable, with the lowest margin not only for legal repercussions, but also the lowest possibility of people like you deciding that all police officers are pure evil who just want as many convictions as possible. Doesn't everybody want their job to be like that? BLM has made some good progress (and more is needed yet) scaring some pure evil people who happen to be police officers into wanting what's good and right. Probably not prudent to worry about a new technology that might be oversensitive, especially when the first time this thing is used in a conviction by a person with a rich dad, they'll spend as much as possible throwing doubt on the research supporting it, or how the officer was trained to use it, or etc etc etc, in order to build plausible deniability in court and get the case thrown out.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admire what you're doing, and hope you can adhere to scientific integrity while developing and selling your product, but that simply isn't true. At least in Washington state. A few years ago Washington State purchased a whole bunch of Draeger 9510 (alcohol breathalyzer) units without ever having tested them. After two years of sitting unused, the warranties were going to expire and they finally got around to testin…

Thanks for the info. Definitely something we have not run into or considered yet. I guess we just naively assumed that all police precincts were as scrupulous as those we talked to :(. There is some stuff we can do, however. For instance, we can directly build the QC schedule into the device so it does not work unless you get it calibrated. We can also have QC cartridges that have a barcode that the device reads to m…

If your product is at all worthwhile, it will constantly be tossed back and forth between lawyers, trying to uphold or disprove its validity. ("Well here's an independent study done on how arresting officers with shaky hands get inconsistent results when administering the SannTek Cannibus test" et al et al ad nauseum) While yes, this is a problem in any society that applies capitalism principles to the practice of law.... I don't think there's necessarily a better system, sadly. Don't feel responsible to fix it all yourself. Anyway, pursue the technology as well as possible, by all means work in as many checks and balances as possible for correct use, and constant calibration, BUT ALSO talk and document openly during your design phase and testing the ideology you develop to govern false positives versus false negatives. This is an extremely engaging technology ethics discussion. If you drive the error to be false negatives, at a rate of 5%, will you not be able to sell it, because your customer is most interested in an effective tool? What is the societal benefit of getting this device to be accepted and used by the police? If you can achieve FN=4% is it worth it, or is the societal benefit actually much higher, possibly at FN =20%. Can you just run the test 5 times in a row, or with 2 stand alone devices to reach the dependability rate you desire? If you drive the error to be false positives, at a rate of 1%, can you sleep at night with the lives your product will effect, or do you need a fall back like your device determining with 100% accuracy that cannibus is present in someone's system (just not a definitive, exact amount), PLUS a statement from an arresting officer stating erratic or dangerous driving or behavior in conjunction with your device's input. I'm very excited about what you're doing. I didn't know (still not yet convinced) that the science is solvent, but I've been asking about this device for years.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#420
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you looking for statistics with marjiuana or impairment in general?

marjiuana curious how it compares to other drugs.

Here's the best I can find.

https://madd.ca/pages/impaired-driving/overview/cannabis-and...

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