The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure • Hacker News Board

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#271

Post by Atheros » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 5:47 AM UTC

fencepost wrote: post #257

rdiddly wrote: post #234

This was obviously never going to work; I think it's far more interesting as a piece of morality theater and/or a psychological ink-blot test. Because who looks at a system like this (individual humans carted around extravagantly in an energy-intensive, 4,000-pound CO2-belching murder machine, on an expensive and space-intensive road created just for them ) and thinks, you know what's wrong with this system? It doesn…

This was obviously never going to work Could be, and I suspect that a lot of the actual engineering folks involved would agree 100% on this point. They'd probably also tell you that 5 million for real - world experimental data on the exact ways in which it failed was very much worth it. Was there anything else worth responding to in the wordy pseudo-psychological insults?

May I please read the real-world experimental data that will save other companies millions of dollars?

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#272

Post by Atheros » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 5:49 AM UTC

fencepost wrote: post #253

beatgammit wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty expensive experiment, and they could have tested each independently (install a few meters of panels near a tree and near a farm). Instead, they installed 1km of road and the minister of energy hoped to drastically increase the amount of these roads within a fairly short time frame (5 years), which tells me they didn't consider it an experiment (just a conservative rollout). This feels like fraud to me…

As a proof of concept trial it wasn't very expensive. Unrelated, but just for comparison it cost about a much as Uber lost every 2.5 hours in 2019Q2. They built a Minimum Viable Product for a trial and found out that it wasn't actually viable and didn't provide the hoped for value. They probably also learned a lot with real world experience (that they wouldn't have been sure to have in a staged setup) and may come ba…

I'll give you 1000:1 odds that we won't.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#273

Post by madaxe_again » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 5:50 AM UTC

tootie wrote: post #42

WalterBright wrote: post #39

"The engineers also didn't take into account the effects of leaves, which caused damage and limited the amount of electricity the panels could produce. They also didn't think about the pressure and weight from tractors, two locals told Le Monde." They were warned about this.

I find it hard to believe they were really unaware. They either overestimated the durability of their devices or were running a quasi scam.

The latter is quite likely.

I have come across quite a few “green” initiatives over the past several years which are extremely questionable in their technicals - and all are taking public money, mostly from European Development Funds in the EU, and from similar bodies elsewhere.

They are usually highly visible, buzzword bingo initiatives. You see these projects in the press - a group grinning in hard hats, a colourful initiative behind them. You go back a few years later and it’s tape and barriers and broken glass and danger signs.

Whether folks start with good intentions but then move on, or don’t have adequate plans for maintenance (which then makes one wonder why funding was granted in first place), or simply see an opportunity to extract wealth from a public body, I don’t know.

An anecdote: a service station near my home in north wales proudly announced that they had received a grant to put on a turf roof, solar and wind power. EU funding. Three years on, and they’ve just announced that they’ve received a grant to do exactly the same thing. Plumbing the Europa site shows that the previous grant was paid, and the project reported as completed - but they never did a thing. I’ve seen the same cycle being pulled elsewhere.

There is such a push for governments to be visibly green that they are spending money on highly visible nonsense. The current elected power gets the boost for snipping the ribbon and providing the funding. Their successor gets a beating over the wasteful failed project.

There are good green initiatives happening, but it’s usually where nobody is looking.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#274

Post by rasz » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 5:57 AM UTC

jwr wrote: post #100

For some reason, solar roads are a very aggressive meme (in the classical sense of the word). They capture the imagination and blind people to engineering reality. Solar roads do not make any sense whatsoever, as you wrote pretty much any other place is better for panels.

Same reason Toyota decided to go with the scam and showed off PV covered Prius https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/5/20683111/toyota-prius-plug... Anybody with the smallest grain of engineering background will immediately spot the deception, but typical off the street person will think its brilliant!

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#275

Post by rasz » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 5:59 AM UTC

doteka wrote: post #40

I remember at the time this was announced, I was working at a startup in the solar PV industry. Our collective response on the workfloor was, "wow, that's an incredibly stupid idea for so many reasons". Surprised it took them so long to admit failure.

What failure? They got paid handsomely.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#276

Post by rasz » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 6:00 AM UTC

Endy wrote: post #65

You know, I always wondered why they didn't go for solar covered sidewalks, which would provide shade to pedestrians and power to everything that needs it. Roads seem like a better place for pressure-based generation (of anything, frankly). Still, just for the enthusiasm they garnered and the continued push toward making renewable energy generation interact with the everyday, the idealists should be commended. The en…

They did, I know of two sidewalks, both caught fire :) and never generated any power, one even needed external supply from the grid.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#277

Post by Grue3 » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 6:04 AM UTC

Made me think, what roads would actually be suitable for this?

They have to be:

1) cleaned often

2) have very little traffic

3) have a very large surface

And one of the solutions that pops up is: airport runways! They have a huge area, way larger than necessary to land a plane. The surface is always kept in good condition. The traffic is minimal, except for a few very busy airports. Some airports handle just a few planes a day, the rest of the time they stay unused, when they could've been producing energy instead.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#278

Post by jcrawfordor » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 6:08 AM UTC

Grue3 wrote: post #277

Made me think, what roads would actually be suitable for this? They have to be: 1) cleaned often 2) have very little traffic 3) have a very large surface And one of the solutions that pops up is: airport runways! They have a huge area, way larger than necessary to land a plane. The surface is always kept in good condition. The traffic is minimal, except for a few very busy airports. Some airports handle just a few pl…

guess what surface area also meets this criteria: dedicated solar installations on open land. and you don't even need to disrupt airport operations for the duration of operations.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#279

Post by rasz » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 6:12 AM UTC

phtrivier wrote: post #41

I can't imagine how hard it must have been, in France of all places, to try something that bold and risky and obvious to oppose beforehand. We're the country of ruthless self deprecation coupled with perfectionist universalism. I hope something was learnt here (other than learning not to do it again), and I'm absolutely confident the people who cluelessly pushed for it will go on their public careers unaffected while…

French arent afraid to be weird. Let me introduce you to Renault Twizy - a road legal mobility scooter, and Avantime - the only coupe minivan even made, a 2 door with no B-pillars, sold as good as that description sounds.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#280

Post by absk » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 6:12 AM UTC

Grue3 wrote: post #277

Made me think, what roads would actually be suitable for this? They have to be: 1) cleaned often 2) have very little traffic 3) have a very large surface And one of the solutions that pops up is: airport runways! They have a huge area, way larger than necessary to land a plane. The surface is always kept in good condition. The traffic is minimal, except for a few very busy airports. Some airports handle just a few pl…

Why does it have to be roads?

All airports have more than enough free space as it is, which can be used to set up solar panels in the most optimal way.