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The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

sciencealert.com

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Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#211

Post by Mirioron »

nordsieck wrote: post #7
remote_phone wrote: post #4

It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. Hopefully something like this comes to fruition and we learn more and more with every iteration. Solar roads are a great idea. Maybe it means it needs daily sweeping with electric vacuum trucks or something but if it’s producing enough electricity then it’s worth it.

> It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. ... Solar roads are a great idea. It was a bad idea. Even in theory. The only positive thing about it is that it captured the imagination of lots of people who know nothing about solar or roads.

The only positive thing it did for me was kill my faith in humanity. The fact that this type of thing had enough credibility to get public money indicates an absurd level of failure in critical thinking.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#212

Post by Mirioron »

aniijbod wrote: post #162

Does anyone but me have the suspicion that the animosity towards solar roads was something to do with a 'nerve being touched', some kind of 'triggering'? Sure, they might not work out, but lots of stupid-sounding ideas ('a horseless carriage? Whatever next?') have turned out to work, just as much as lots of somewhat futuristic but nonetheless sensible sounding ideas have turned out not to be here yet ('flying cars ar…

>Sure, they might not work out, but lots of stupid-sounding ideas ('a horseless carriage?

It's a monumentally stupid idea. I'm surprised it isn't outright labelled as a scam. They basically cheated money out of governments and gullible people with a project that was never a good idea in the first place.

Solar is the perpetuum mobile of our time.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#213

Post by dredmorbius »

There is one and only one bright spot I can see in this test: the concept was trialed under ideal conditions according to its proponents, and failed spectacularly.

There's a high probability that true beleivers still won't be convinced -- their faith transcends reason and experience. The rest of us can point to this as a Provably Bad Idea.

My only regret is that there aren't similarly conclusive demonstrations possible in all such cases.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#214

Post by RyJones »

dredmorbius wrote: post #213

There is one and only one bright spot I can see in this test: the concept was trialed under ideal conditions according to its proponents, and failed spectacularly. There's a high probability that true beleivers still won't be convinced -- their faith transcends reason and experience. The rest of us can point to this as a Provably Bad Idea. My only regret is that there aren't similarly conclusive demonstrations possib…

http://www.whenprophecyfails.info/Conditions.htm

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#215

Post by nordsieck »

Someone wrote: post #117
Smithalicious wrote: post #47

I never managed to see the advantages of having a solar road compared to just having a normal road with solar panels next to it. Or above it. Or literally anywhere else. In fact I can't think of many areas that still get direct sunlight that would make for a worse place to put solar panels than on the road...

I have serious doubts these experiments will lead to commercially successful implementations, but I don’t think it is useless to do them. Reason? Solar cells keep getting cheaper and cheaper. That makes the costs of scaffolding to hold the cells take a larger and larger share of installation costs. In the limit where cells are essentially free, putting cells everywhere there is some large horizontal area will make se…

> In the limit where cells are essentially free, putting cells everywhere there is some large horizontal area will make sense.

Going down that road leads to solar power satellites, not solar roadways.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#216

Post by charlesju »

nordsieck wrote: post #215
Someone wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have serious doubts these experiments will lead to commercially successful implementations, but I don’t think it is useless to do them. Reason? Solar cells keep getting cheaper and cheaper. That makes the costs of scaffolding to hold the cells take a larger and larger share of installation costs. In the limit where cells are essentially free, putting cells everywhere there is some large horizontal area will make se…

> In the limit where cells are essentially free, putting cells everywhere there is some large horizontal area will make sense. Going down that road leads to solar power satellites, not solar roadways.

Why not both? Neither works right now, it's probably prudent to try as many interesting things as possible.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#217

Post by ars »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #182
mbrumlow wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That it currently do not work economically is the issue that the article showcase. It's more than that. We simply don't live in a world where physics is in favor for doing this. Many people have done more than back of the envelope calculations to show this simply was a non starter. Those (people who took money to build ) push this idea are either ignorant at best and dishonest at worst.

I do wonder if the concept could work on a sidewalk, given that they aren't being perpetually driven over by 3,000+ pound vehicles.

The ground pressure from a truck is around 150 PSI. A woman wearing high heels can match, and even exceed that.

So the sidewalk would need to be just as strong as the road.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#218

Post by dredmorbius »

RyJones wrote: post #214
dredmorbius wrote: post #213

There is one and only one bright spot I can see in this test: the concept was trialed under ideal conditions according to its proponents, and failed spectacularly. There's a high probability that true beleivers still won't be convinced -- their faith transcends reason and experience. The rest of us can point to this as a Provably Bad Idea. My only regret is that there aren't similarly conclusive demonstrations possib…

http://www.whenprophecyfails.info/Conditions.htm

Interesting, though I think there's more to it than just this.

Belief tends to become identity.

Moreover, belief becomes an ordering principle. The refutation of a belief creates the problem that there is no longer an ordering principle. This isn't always clearly obvious, but if the belief is itself part of a complex chain of interconnected beliefs, then removal of one, even if quite clearly false, creates discord within the entire structure. You've got to break down and rebuild the whole thing, which can get complicated.

(Compare, by way of technical analogue, the task of refactoring a particularly messy bit of code or kit, where it turns out that a specific feature has interactions across a wide number of other areas.)

The Kubler-Ross model of grief is, I'm increasingly convinced, actually a response to belief changes. The original research was based on patients informed of their own pending mortality, by way of fatal diagnoses or conditions, and how they responded.

Such information is a massive disruption to belief systems. And absent some mechanism for supporting transition to a different one, the classic KR response (denial, anger, depression, bargaining, acceptance) is highly probable.

The interesting question to me is what happens in cases where such responses don't develop. Where we can and do change beliefs quickly and fluidly. What do those circumstances have in common.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#219

Post by magicalhippo »

blunte wrote: post #61
magicalhippo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe expectations need to be adjusted, but experiments like this are worth doing! No they are not. Solar roads do not make sense, not for a looooong time anyway. So far, all of the currently failed solar road projects have failed in utterly predictable ways[1][2][3], and I'm certain nothing novel has been learned. There are so many better places to put solar panels than beneath roads. If anything they should put w…

Sure, I tend to agree with you. But as I posted to another reply, it's conceivable that this silly experiment will lead to improvement in material science or some other construction/manufacturing practice related to solar panels. And hey, we can't be too hard on them for perhaps jumping on a bandwagon. Solar roads seems more plausible than food delivery service on "the blockchain".

The only thing that they could have contributed with is making flexible solar panels. But they didn't. Instead they just put down regular panels.

Assume they actually made flexible panels. They'd still have the issue of the abysmal efficiency due to the inevitable grinding of the surface and dirt filling up the cracks. You'd need frequent washing of the roads to keep them clean. Was that included in the energy projections?

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#220

Post by magicalhippo »

WalterBright wrote: post #68
magicalhippo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe expectations need to be adjusted, but experiments like this are worth doing! No they are not. Solar roads do not make sense, not for a looooong time anyway. So far, all of the currently failed solar road projects have failed in utterly predictable ways[1][2][3], and I'm certain nothing novel has been learned. There are so many better places to put solar panels than beneath roads. If anything they should put w…

> they should put water pipes to utilize the heat Missed by most people is that roads flex under the weight. (Stand next to the train tracks when a train goes by, you'll be startled at how much the ground moves.) Flexing of the roads it the primary cause of road maintenance - cracking and crumbling. Silicon chips in the roadbed, wires, pipes, etc, are all very vulnerable to cracking under bending loads. Putting water…

I know, my road has trams in the middle.

That said, we have the technology to make flexible pipes. It'd still be a pretty dumb idea, but at least a few order of magnitude less dumb than these solar roads.

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