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The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

sciencealert.com

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Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#61

Post by blunte »

magicalhippo wrote: post #33
blunte wrote: post #22

Fortunately we didn't give up on flight after the early airplanes. Maybe expectations need to be adjusted, but experiments like this are worth doing! We don't know exactly what they will lead to, but they often add to progress.

> Maybe expectations need to be adjusted, but experiments like this are worth doing! No they are not. Solar roads do not make sense, not for a looooong time anyway. So far, all of the currently failed solar road projects have failed in utterly predictable ways[1][2][3], and I'm certain nothing novel has been learned. There are so many better places to put solar panels than beneath roads. If anything they should put w…

Sure, I tend to agree with you. But as I posted to another reply, it's conceivable that this silly experiment will lead to improvement in material science or some other construction/manufacturing practice related to solar panels.

And hey, we can't be too hard on them for perhaps jumping on a bandwagon. Solar roads seems more plausible than food delivery service on "the blockchain".

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#62

Post by froindt »

blunte wrote: post #22

Fortunately we didn't give up on flight after the early airplanes. Maybe expectations need to be adjusted, but experiments like this are worth doing! We don't know exactly what they will lead to, but they often add to progress.

My issue with it is the scaling. They had a test installation in sidewalk which proved to be woefully inadequate. Yet the pushed on, largely unchanged. They took two things which have significantly different requirements and tried mashing them into one.

Solar panels need to be oriented towards the sun to maximize energy, and need to get as much sun going through the glass to the panel as possible. You basically end up multiplying many variables together to get the end efficiency, and we're actively degrading 3 by a significant degree by adjusting the glass/plastic to withstand the weight of cars and semis, scratching the surface over time with the dust and sand, and mounting them flat.

Roads need to be cheap to install, need to be long lasting, and need to assist vehicles in stopping quickly. I'd love to know the difference in stopping distance and coefficient of friction between this and traditional roads.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#63

Post by CamperBob2 »

remote_phone wrote: post #4

It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. Hopefully something like this comes to fruition and we learn more and more with every iteration. Solar roads are a great idea. Maybe it means it needs daily sweeping with electric vacuum trucks or something but if it’s producing enough electricity then it’s worth it.

It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it.

I'm not. Research funding is very much a zero-sum game. Because they spent that much money trying something that stupid, it's safe to say that some actual good ideas either didn't get funded or had to make do with less.

we learn more and more with every iteration

There was nothing to learn here. It was easy to predict the outcome based on well-understood models, and countless people did.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#64

Post by godelski »

blunte wrote: post #22

Fortunately we didn't give up on flight after the early airplanes. Maybe expectations need to be adjusted, but experiments like this are worth doing! We don't know exactly what they will lead to, but they often add to progress.

> Maybe expectations need to be adjusted, but experiments like this are worth doing! We don't know exactly what they will lead to, but they often add to progress.

Except we all knew this would happen. It was all in the predictions. This was a scam. People did the math on these things. We knew it wouldn't hold up to tractors and heavy vehicles. We knew there wasn't a good solution to keep things clean. The problem is that this wasn't sound from even basic engineering.

I wouldn't call it a scam if they were honest about this. If they said "yes we need to do more testing" and "this test will help us figure those things it". But they didn't even do the background research. They called everyone that did may sayers. There's a reason only the IFLS type crowd liked them and not actual engineers.

I'm all in favor of doing hard tasks. Using government money to take risks in science and engineering. That's something we need to strive for. But things like this make it harder to get support for that because this was a joke from the beginning. Experts knew it was a scam from the get go.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#65

Post by Endy »

You know, I always wondered why they didn't go for solar covered sidewalks, which would provide shade to pedestrians and power to everything that needs it. Roads seem like a better place for pressure-based generation (of anything, frankly).

Still, just for the enthusiasm they garnered and the continued push toward making renewable energy generation interact with the everyday, the idealists should be commended. The engineers... not as such, no.

But, silly question, knowing very little about this field, couldn't it be possible to (co)generate power from the heat and pressure that roads endure on a near-constant basis?

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#66

Post by onion2k »

dghughes wrote: post #26

Most solar panels are very inefficient at converting the sun to electricity so they need all the help they can get. Two things solar panels require is to be clean and to be perpendicular to the sun. A solar road achieves neither of those things.

Those things are necessary to get the opimimum amount of electricity but the point of solar roads is to sacrifice some efficiency for the benefit of having huge amounts of surface area. The amount of paved highway in developed countries is enormous, so even massively inefficient solar roads could supply all the electricity necessary and more.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#67

Post by jdietrich »

doteka wrote: post #48
buboard wrote: post #11

Help me understand the logic behind taking a PV and stepping on it in the worst possible way, leaving dirt , rubber etc, when every PV that is exposed only to the open air needs regular cleaning / maintainance. And its being frequently under the shade of cars

I'm curious how you arrived at that conclusion? Common wisdom, at least a few years ago, was "cleaning isn't worth it". ( https://phys.org/news/2013-07-solar-panels-worth.html )

Self-cleaning glass is a fairly mature technology and will work effectively on a rooftop solar installation. That won't work on a solar roadway, which a) needs a textured surface to provide adequate grip for vehicles and b) can't retain any sort of coating due to friction and c) is constantly being covered in axle grease, tire rubber, brake dust and the innards of various wild animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-cleaning_glass

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#68

Post by WalterBright »

magicalhippo wrote: post #33
blunte wrote: post #22

Fortunately we didn't give up on flight after the early airplanes. Maybe expectations need to be adjusted, but experiments like this are worth doing! We don't know exactly what they will lead to, but they often add to progress.

> Maybe expectations need to be adjusted, but experiments like this are worth doing! No they are not. Solar roads do not make sense, not for a looooong time anyway. So far, all of the currently failed solar road projects have failed in utterly predictable ways[1][2][3], and I'm certain nothing novel has been learned. There are so many better places to put solar panels than beneath roads. If anything they should put w…

> they should put water pipes to utilize the heat

Missed by most people is that roads flex under the weight. (Stand next to the train tracks when a train goes by, you'll be startled at how much the ground moves.) Flexing of the roads it the primary cause of road maintenance - cracking and crumbling.

Silicon chips in the roadbed, wires, pipes, etc, are all very vulnerable to cracking under bending loads. Putting water pipes in the roads mean you'll get innumerable leaks in short order.

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#69

Post by nkrisc »

remote_phone wrote: post #4

It was a failure but I’m glad they tried it. Hopefully something like this comes to fruition and we learn more and more with every iteration. Solar roads are a great idea. Maybe it means it needs daily sweeping with electric vacuum trucks or something but if it’s producing enough electricity then it’s worth it.

Why is building PV panels into the road better than putting them next to the road? Or in giant empty fields along roads?

Re: The first solar road has turned out to be a disappointing failure

#70

Post by edoceo »

dghughes wrote: post #26

Most solar panels are very inefficient at converting the sun to electricity so they need all the help they can get. Two things solar panels require is to be clean and to be perpendicular to the sun. A solar road achieves neither of those things.

Panels at the side of the roads?
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