US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In • Hacker News Board

Re: US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In

#111

Post by tkxxx7 » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:09 PM UTC

asclepi wrote: post #79

n8henry wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are locking their Android friends out of group messages, which are very popular among that age group.

The same applies. Messages can perfectly handle group messages that include a mix of iOS and Android users. Unlike Whatsapp, Messages doesn't require that every participant has Messages, nor that they have an iPhone. Messages will send each and every group message to every Android user in the group using SMS. But it will color the bubble green. And that's why they get locked out.

> But it will color the bubble green. And that's why they get locked out.

You seem to be attaching too much significance to the color. It really is because the experience sucks over SMS. The annoyance with the green color is just a symbol of that frustration. I implore you, to try having a meaningful group chat with a mix of users. Having just one Android user instantly degrades the experience for everyone involved.

> Unlike Whatsapp, Messages doesn't require that every participant has Messages, nor that they have an iPhone. Messages will send each and every group message to every Android user in the group using SMS.

Messages isn't the problem. Group SMS is.

You are forced into transitioning out of a group chat model, to a broadcast SMS one. All the usual issues apply - increased delays/out of order messages, no read receipts, Android phones randomly creating multiple smaller groups or just shitting out completely.. Any semblance of real-time destroyed.

Re: US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In

#112

Post by asclepi » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:16 PM UTC

tkxxx7 wrote: post #111

asclepi wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same applies. Messages can perfectly handle group messages that include a mix of iOS and Android users. Unlike Whatsapp, Messages doesn't require that every participant has Messages, nor that they have an iPhone. Messages will send each and every group message to every Android user in the group using SMS. But it will color the bubble green. And that's why they get locked out.

> But it will color the bubble green. And that's why they get locked out. You seem to be attaching too much significance to the color. It really is because the experience sucks over SMS. The annoyance with the green color is just a symbol of that frustration. I implore you, to try having a meaningful group chat with a mix of users. Having just one Android user instantly degrades the experience for everyone involved.…

> You seem to be attaching too much significance to the color.

I'm not. That is what the Twitter OP indicated as the actual reason.

He was left out "specifically because he was on Android and turned the thread green" (sic). Or in the student's own words: "we would start a new group chat, and the group would realize I was the reason it was green, and they would start another group chat without me". Nowhere is mentioned that the degraded experience is the reason.

It could be that that the SMS experience is the reason when it comes to adults who are mature enough to leave the green/blue behind them but have a lot less tolerance for poor UX.

But for teens - which is what this thread is about - I fully agree with OP's conclusion that the social stigma surrounding the color is the primary reason.

Re: US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In

#113

Post by endperform » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:17 PM UTC

damnyou wrote: post #63

CDSlice wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't buy apps from Apple, you buy them through Apple's app store (an important difference). You can use other voice assistants, you just can't set them as the default (which is a reasonable complaint) As an Android guy, I have to say that after trying Rokus, Fire TVs, and chromecasts the Apple TV is far from crappy and is honestly one of the best smart TV boxes. Anyway, you can also buy a lightning to HDMI adapt…

Of course you buy apps from Apple. That's why Apple, worth gobloads of money, can impose a 30% tax on independent app developers' labor. You can't even tell users how to subscribe without giving Apple a cut if you're on iOS. To any normal person that's an egregious abuse of power. Somehow people on HN just suck it up. Does WhatsApp force a particular voice assistant or app store on you? No? Apple's lock in is abusive…

Google is also taking 30% when someone purchases an app through Google Play, and they also take a 15% cut of subscriptions as well, so it's not just Apple.

Google forces their App Store and Assistant on you. Your Android phone manufacturer also forces other garbage on top of that as well as locking you into a version of Android with no guaranteed upgrade path. See: Samsung and Bixby.

Get your facts straight, or at least take off the blinders that is your hatred of Apple.

Re: US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In

#114

Post by snowwrestler » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:19 PM UTC

asclepi wrote: post #45

joekrill wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most significant difference is that WhatsApp is at least platform independent. iMessage simply is not an option on Android - it's limited to iPhone users only and it doesn't seem like Apple has any intention of changing that. WhatsApp, on the other hand, can be used by whoever wants to download it. It's still vendor lock-in. Just not to the same extent.

iMessage reverts to SMS when the recipient doesn't have an iPhone. All within the same app. To what does Whatsapp revert when the recipient doesn't have Whatsapp?

That's configurable and I have iMessage set to NOT revert to SMS for any reason. I know others who have this set as well.

Given the differences in authentication and encryption, I consider that feature to be a security hole. And honestly, in my experience it doesn't work very well.

When I need to chat with folks who don't have an iPhone, I use a different app, like Google Voice or WhatsApp.

Re: US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In

#115

Post by dijit » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:21 PM UTC

damnyou wrote: post #63

CDSlice wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't buy apps from Apple, you buy them through Apple's app store (an important difference). You can use other voice assistants, you just can't set them as the default (which is a reasonable complaint) As an Android guy, I have to say that after trying Rokus, Fire TVs, and chromecasts the Apple TV is far from crappy and is honestly one of the best smart TV boxes. Anyway, you can also buy a lightning to HDMI adapt…

Of course you buy apps from Apple. That's why Apple, worth gobloads of money, can impose a 30% tax on independent app developers' labor. You can't even tell users how to subscribe without giving Apple a cut if you're on iOS. To any normal person that's an egregious abuse of power. Somehow people on HN just suck it up. Does WhatsApp force a particular voice assistant or app store on you? No? Apple's lock in is abusive…

You’re going to have trouble convincing people because ultimately Apple and Google are hugely different.

The non-Apple base have decided that Apple is just overhyped over-expensive gear which is only slightly more polished and a lot more locked down than whatever their favourite thing is.

Apple users use Apple products because mostly it’s just honest. You get what you pay for, no hidden agendas, no up-sell.

Re: US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In

#116

Post by damnyou » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:22 PM UTC

endperform wrote: post #113

damnyou wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you buy apps from Apple. That's why Apple, worth gobloads of money, can impose a 30% tax on independent app developers' labor. You can't even tell users how to subscribe without giving Apple a cut if you're on iOS. To any normal person that's an egregious abuse of power. Somehow people on HN just suck it up. Does WhatsApp force a particular voice assistant or app store on you? No? Apple's lock in is abusive…

Google is also taking 30% when someone purchases an app through Google Play, and they also take a 15% cut of subscriptions as well, so it's not just Apple. Google forces their App Store and Assistant on you. Your Android phone manufacturer also forces other garbage on top of that as well as locking you into a version of Android with no guaranteed upgrade path. See: Samsung and Bixby. Get your facts straight, or at le…

Of course Google is also bad, but it at least allows sideloading and other app stores.

Re: US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In

#117

Post by damnyou » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:23 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #115

damnyou wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you buy apps from Apple. That's why Apple, worth gobloads of money, can impose a 30% tax on independent app developers' labor. You can't even tell users how to subscribe without giving Apple a cut if you're on iOS. To any normal person that's an egregious abuse of power. Somehow people on HN just suck it up. Does WhatsApp force a particular voice assistant or app store on you? No? Apple's lock in is abusive…

You’re going to have trouble convincing people because ultimately Apple and Google are hugely different. The non-Apple base have decided that Apple is just overhyped over-expensive gear which is only slightly more polished and a lot more locked down than whatever their favourite thing is. Apple users use Apple products because mostly it’s just honest. You get what you pay for, no hidden agendas, no up-sell.

Every single Apple device has a hidden agenda — to make Apple even more powerful than it is today, even more of a bully.

All concentrations of power are bad. As a society we must always seek to reduce power imbalances, not perpetuate them

Re: US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In

#118

Post by endperform » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:29 PM UTC

damnyou wrote: post #116

endperform wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is also taking 30% when someone purchases an app through Google Play, and they also take a 15% cut of subscriptions as well, so it's not just Apple. Google forces their App Store and Assistant on you. Your Android phone manufacturer also forces other garbage on top of that as well as locking you into a version of Android with no guaranteed upgrade path. See: Samsung and Bixby. Get your facts straight, or at le…

Of course Google is also bad, but it at least allows sideloading and other app stores.

Which also opens up a nice new attack vector.

Re: US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In

#119

Post by asclepi » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:46 PM UTC

ariwilson wrote: post #109

asclepi wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iMessage reverts to SMS when the recipient doesn't have an iPhone. All within the same app. To what does Whatsapp revert when the recipient doesn't have Whatsapp?

Read the article; the whole problem is Apple distinguishing between Android and Apple users.

Absolutely, but Whatsapp it isn't distinguishing any less between Whatsapp users and non-Whatsapp users.

Messages doesn't entirely cut you off from people who don't bring money to Apple, and it doesn't require another app to communicate with them. It will handle and integrate it all in the same interface with iMessage, seamlessly switching in the background to make that possible. Whatsapp, OTOH, plainly refuses to let you interact with anyone who prefers not to accept an intrusive TOS and bring in (ad) money to Facebook.

I agree that both apps have different approaches and both have pros and cons, but I don't support the suggestion that Whatsapp, or any similar app for that matter, is any less "vendor lock-in" than Messages.

Re: US Gen Z and the iMessage Lock-In

#120

Post by tpush » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 9:05 PM UTC

mdszy wrote: post #66

damnyou wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kids could just be inclusive and switch to Telegram or WhatsApp or even Messenger. But the kids want to discriminate — humans, particularly Americans, thrive on excluding other people. the kids are just imitating the patterns they pick up from adults.

yeah fuck americans am i right totally has nothing to do with the fact that it's a built in app where you don't have to do anything extra to set it up no-sir-ee it's the americans who are bad!

Effectively no human with a smartphone outside the US finds having to install an app to communicate with other people in a cross platform way a burden enough to stay with iMessage.

Either Americans are uniquely lazy when it comes to installing apps on their phone, or this argument doesn't hold any water.