Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis • Hacker News Board

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#241

Post by aianus » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

elif wrote: post #6

Do you struggle with the ethics of assisting in the arrest of, in my state, 90% minorities for a crime with dubious safety grounds?

Either those people are breaking the law and driving impaired or not.

If they are driving impaired, then the solution to the injustice is not to let them go, but to arrest more impaired white drivers.

If they are not driving impaired, but being arrested based on the subjective opinions of the police officer, then this device can help their defense in court.

Either way, I don't see how this device is making things worse.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#242

Post by mikepurvis » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

chadash wrote: post #31

I don't understand the negativity in many of the comments here. I'm all for legalization of marijuana, but I actually think that the inability to test for people driving high is a very reasonable argument against legalization. I generally feel that people should be able to make their own choices, but not if those choices involve driving a 3000 pound piece of metal down the highway while impaired. Yes, we need to be c…

I'm sure this varies by jurisdiction, but I really wish my local police department (in Waterloo region) were willing to put even the slightest effort toward general road safety. As a four season bike/eskate commuter who wears a gopro, I am yelled at, swerved at, I witness drivers running stop signs, exiting driveways without looking where they're going, making RTOR without looking where they are going, driving at people walking in crosswalks, and using their phones at stoplights.

I have recorded lots of videos of these behaviours, many with plate and driver face clearly visible, and my local police service just has zero interest in following up on it. There are hotspot intersections I've informed them about where they could set up shop and nail 10-20 drivers an hour for convictions with tickets ranging from $200 to $1000, but I guess they're too busy idling in parking lots waiting for that high priority call to come in.

So, driving high is totally a problem and going to be increasingly a problem, especially in Canada. But based on what I see in my community, it's not clear that the police have any interest at all in proactive enforcement, especially in service of road safety.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#243

Post by rxhernandez » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #217

ehnto wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why many states follow a positive breathalyzer test with a blood test. In my state, you can refuse them both, but you lose your license temporarily for doing so. I think that's fair. I understand some are skeptical about giving blood to the police, but if you can't prove you're not drunk or high after a positive reading on a less accurate device, then you aren't allowed on the road. The risk is too great for…

In Texas, you receive a mandatory suspension for refusing just a breathalyzer, even if you are found to not be over the legal limit, or are never convicted of a DWI. Blood tests are then often obtained via warrant (and it's typical to have a judge "on call" to sign and fax those orders on demand)

That's utterly disgusting that the state can invade your body and take blood out with a warrant.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#244

Post by root_axis » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #240

root_axis wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What appears intuitively true is not always so. Certainly, anything at "some level of consumption" would be an impairment, but I'm not sure it's established that marijuana impairs driving ability under typical usage scenarios.

Given how dangerous automobiles are even for non-impaired people, I'd rather err on the side of caution, especially given that consuming is not something people need to do.

I prefer to err on the side of data before it is mandated that people be tested for marijuana at traffic stops in the name of "caution".

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#245

Post by jakelazaroff » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #197

woah wrote: post #4

Sounds like it’s well-intentioned, but I’m afraid that given the incentives of all parties involved here, and the complexity of the technology, there will be a lot of false positives. It’s obvious that the police will want a device that produces more convictions, no point in disputing that. I’m wondering if you can elaborate on what incentives your company has to produce accurate devices, against your customer’s unst…

> It’s obvious that the police will want a device that produces more convictions If a defendant ever challenges the use of the device, an inaccurate (particularly, false-positive-producing) device is more likely to be thrown out discrediting the device class, not just the individual case, and potentially forcing after-the-fact dismissal of prior convictions. So, avoidable false-positives isn't necessarily an approach…

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be that simple in practice; this comment by edmundsato [1] has a lot of good info.

After-the-fact dismissal of convictions may seem like things eventually work out, but remember that in the meantime innocent people's lives are upended as they're thrown into the justice system.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20718599

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#246

Post by iamleppert » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

It sounds nice in theory but at such minute levels, you're going to have tons of noise and variation from individual to individual. You'll be able to produce a result, but it likely won't have any bearing in reality.

In order to offset the noise you'll need to increase your sample size (volume) of air. You can't measure what isn't there, and once you get down to these levels stuff stops becoming distributed uniformly.

Have fun becoming friends with the vendors who supply the police their other technology. Must be a great crowd of people! You all can sit around and make jokes about black people and discuss your cut of civil forfeitures.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#247

Post by sixstringtheory » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

hooande wrote: post #234

sixstringtheory wrote: post #209

Just the fact that you will be profiting off of this perceived issue, means you have some interest in the root causes of impaired driving remaining unsolved. Reading statements like this just tells me you have dollar signs in your eyes: > we're imagining a world where there are one of our devices in every police car in North America Nowhere did I see a sentiment akin to this: > we're imagining a world where people ac…

do the companies who currently make alcohol breathalyzers donate profits to charity? and do you question their motives as well?

Ethics obviates the answers to these questions. It doesn't matter what other people do.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#248

Post by chadash » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:45 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #242

chadash wrote: post #31

I don't understand the negativity in many of the comments here. I'm all for legalization of marijuana, but I actually think that the inability to test for people driving high is a very reasonable argument against legalization. I generally feel that people should be able to make their own choices, but not if those choices involve driving a 3000 pound piece of metal down the highway while impaired. Yes, we need to be c…

I'm sure this varies by jurisdiction, but I really wish my local police department (in Waterloo region) were willing to put even the slightest effort toward general road safety. As a four season bike/eskate commuter who wears a gopro, I am yelled at, swerved at, I witness drivers running stop signs, exiting driveways without looking where they're going, making RTOR without looking where they are going, driving at peo…

This isn't a silver bullet, but it will probably help. Say you are driving high right now. A cop pulls you over and suspects you are high. Now, he's got to get a blood test, which he needs to take you to a lab for and will probably need a warrant, because who is gonna consent to having their blood drawn. And most of the time, the blood test doesn't show anything useful, because unless it's done within a short time frame of you using cannabis, the THC will be broken down and it won't show that you smoked within the last few hours, only that you smoked recently, as in the last few days or weeks. So what kind of cop wants to deal with this? If you had an accurate test that could be done on the spot, it would be much easier for them. It's not like every cop will instantly be motivated, but I'm sure it'll help.

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#249

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:46 PM UTC

ehnto wrote: post #205

chadash wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in an ideal world we would do that. But by the time we come up with a perfect test that can be done roadside by police to determine driving impairment, that has very few false positives and holds up in court, we'll most likely have self driving cars and this won't be an issue anyway. I understand that everyone reacts differently to different drugs. Dale Earnhardt can probably be a little tipsy and still drive be…

What are the chances that as you mention Dale, and I Google to find out who he is, that he would have hit the news having just survived a plane crash hours ago.

[deleted]

Re: Launch HN: SannTek (YC S19) – Breathalyzer for Cannabis

#250

Post by phnofive » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:50 PM UTC

aripickar wrote: post #211

Does this test for edibles? If a user has THC in their blood stream but not from their lungs, will this show up? Alcohol is absorbed through the stomach, passed through the bloodstream and released through the lungs. Since THC is fat soluble, I can't imagine it interacts the same way to allow for breathalyzer testing of people who have taken edibles.

Per OP:

> We are actually testing edibles right now! Early results don't look so good, but that could be because we were using our crappy LC-MS for detection instead of our sensor. We'll keep everyone updated with how it goes!

I don’t understand how this gadget works, but if it’s detecting residual THC in the lungs from smoke or vapor, I can’t see how this improves over blood testing as a proxy for impairment; I can see how LEO would nonetheless like to have it as it further empowers roadside judgements.