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Cool but obscure X11 tools

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Re: Cool but obscure X11 tools

#181

Post by cestith »

bonzini wrote: post #169
big_chungus wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Code which, for most people, does work. That doesn't mean other stuff couldn't have been better. Here's the problem the systemd argument: it's motte-and-bailey. Systemd is a huge collection of tools, not just an init system: it's got resolved, journald, logind, tmpfiles, bootctl, networkd, and more. However, whenever it's criticized, proponents fall back on "but it's a great init system!" I agree that the unit file…

Wait, people are replacing so many components but systemd didn't do a great job at modularity?

I think at this level the complaint (which I share) of all the things systemd tries to do falls more on the distros for handing so many things to systemd by default than on the systemd team giving us options for ways to do so many things.

I like unit files. I like having an optional watchdog for any given daemon integrated with my init. I don't particularly mind hostnamectl. I dislike resolverd but I see how some people could like it. I like having both signed binary logs and plaintext logs.

I wish the distros just made it simpler to pick and choose which systemd components we use at installation time. It would be better IMO than having to manually undo lots of integrations of parts of systemd I don't want and replacing them. So far the distro solution has seemed to be whole hog systemd or baby and bathwater, depending on the distro. Yes, we can set up our own base image and then maintain that, but should it be necessary?

Re: Cool but obscure X11 tools

#182

Post by Accacin »

netsharc wrote: post #175
Accacin wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, he thinks he's smarter than every one. Wow, are we insulting people like we're twelve now? Again, I have to ask. Why are you not writing a replacement for systemd? Again, another person in this thread seems to think they know everything yet don't seem to have any code to show for it.

Please be advised, I've downvoted your comments asking "if you know better, where's your code?", because I think that line of argument is absurd and has no legitimacy. To use some analogy, imagine I, a non-cook, have been invited to a restaurant by friends. After the meal I say to the waiter "this food is way too salty!", and he replies, "Oh yeah, then go in the kitchen and replace our cook!". What, you think we all…

No, your analogy isn't correct though. You're broadcasting your opinion on an online message board, not just a waiter. Plus, you're paying for the food. It's nothing alike. The parent comment is basically implying that the cook has cooked the dish completely wrong and that he (a non-cook) could do a better job of cooking that dish.

Plus, isn't this the great thing about open source? If someone doesn't like systemd, they can write they're own. Of course, not one does..

> What, you think we all don't have dayjobs and can just devote our time to...

I'm only suggesting this to the people who comment online complaining how the most used implementation isn't up to their personal standards and that they know how it could be done better.

It's easy to complain and bitch online, that's the problem. Everyone seems to know the solution but no one seems to do it.

> Please be advised, I've downvoted your comments asking "if you know better, where's your code?"

Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

I upvoted you because you downvoted me.

Re: Cool but obscure X11 tools

#184

Post by arendtio »

acdha wrote: post #165
arendtio wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think Lennart misjudged how much trouble his projects caused. And especially Systemd was nothing you could easily avoid. So I can understand that there were quite a few people angry at him and the way he was doing things. In addition, he is someone who can dish out to others too (I remember a (badly prepared) talk he attended and completely sabotaged by asking questions and make the speaker look like a total…

> Well, I think Lennart misjudged how much trouble his projects caused. And especially Systemd was nothing you could easily avoid. Think about your second sentence a bit, and why it's true: major Linux distributions adopted systemd. Did they do that because it really caused a bunch of trouble or because a deliberative review process showed that it solved a number of hard problems? A small percentage of people having…

I have thought about it and I did so for years. I know that those projects solved hard issues and I also know that there are many people who would not have been able to complete those projects successfully. In fact, in 2011 I considered holding a presentation about how great systemd is.

But my point is a different one: If you manage such a project, you have to manage the change. And when you know that there are people who disagree with you on a fundamental level, it doesn't help driving your followers away by releasing breaking changes on a regular basis.

As an end-user, I remember for PulseAudio and systemd at least one instance where I had built something with it and after an update, it didn't work anymore and I had to adapt it.

So I don't believe that there was just a 'small percentage of people having very loud emotional reactions'. Instead, I think it was more like everybody had some problems adapting to systemd, but some saw the benefits it came with and others fought it as hard as they could (for various reasons).

So the problem isn't what Lennart had done (which is great), but how he got there. And I think Lennart would be happier today if he didn't do it the way he did.

Re: Cool but obscure X11 tools

#185

Post by microcolonel »

arendtio wrote: post #73
microcolonel wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For clarity, Lennart Poettering is an extremely prolific guy that people somehow love to hate. At the end of the day, his critics either use his software begrudgingly, or use somebody else's to their own detriment, just to spite him. I take some time every year to thank Lennart for systemd and PulseAudio; I remember when the grass was parched brown on my side, green has been a welcome change!

Well, I think Lennart misjudged how much trouble his projects caused. And especially Systemd was nothing you could easily avoid. So I can understand that there were quite a few people angry at him and the way he was doing things. In addition, he is someone who can dish out to others too (I remember a (badly prepared) talk he attended and completely sabotaged by asking questions and make the speaker look like a total…

That is basically my position too, except the idea that Lennart has somehow caused people trouble with his projects, which is hilarious given how enthusiastically people adopt his software over the alternatives.

I really like systemd, though it has flaws. I was using Fedora at home, and Debian on servers when it was new. As soon as it was straightforward, I started using systemd on my Debian machines (building from source, when Debian was not systemd-based) and it solved a lot of issues I'd been having, made it dead simple to get new services up and running.

When Arch Linux switched to systemd, that was what convinced me to switch to Arch Linux on the desktop. I had been getting a lot of value out of systemd on Fedora, but I had wanted to try a proper rolling release.

I have a similar story with PulseAudio. I've owned many systems with no hardware mixer over the years, and the other options had been total trash.

PulseAudio actually worked. When I wanted a feature, it tended to be available on PulseAudio. In 2017, when I spent a lot of time between a laptop and a desktop (now I mostly just use a phone/PDA and a desktop), I liked being able to switch seamlessly between them.

I set up a network audio device as my second default sink (after local headphones) on both machines, so I could move my headphones between them, and whichever device was playing audio would play it through my headphones. It took hardly any fiddling about, thanks to Lennart's other project: Avahi.

Over the years, I hear a lot of people criticizing the software, but taking the functionality for granted. What systemd, PulseAudio, and Avahi do for ordinary people using GNU/Linux on the desktop is generally not possible with competing packages, which is why these packages are ubiquitous. It's not some grand conspiracy to take away your beloved OpenRC; systemd is just better (warts and all) than the alternatives, for the vast majority of users.

Obviously Lennart has personal issues with some people in some places, like any human being, but that has nothing to do with the software.

Richard Stallman may not have the best Spanish elocution, and GNU has flaws; does this tell you enough to know to choose a different libc, or a different core utilities package?

“Life does not ask what we want. It presents us with options” — Thomas Sowell

Re: Cool but obscure X11 tools

#186

Post by big_chungus »

Accacin wrote: post #161
big_chungus wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Code which, for most people, does work. That doesn't mean other stuff couldn't have been better. Here's the problem the systemd argument: it's motte-and-bailey. Systemd is a huge collection of tools, not just an init system: it's got resolved, journald, logind, tmpfiles, bootctl, networkd, and more. However, whenever it's criticized, proponents fall back on "but it's a great init system!" I agree that the unit file…

> Also, he thinks he's smarter than every one. Wow, are we insulting people like we're twelve now? Again, I have to ask. Why are you not writing a replacement for systemd? Again, another person in this thread seems to think they know everything yet don't seem to have any code to show for it.

>> Also, he thinks he's smarter than every one.

> Wow, are we insulting people like we're twelve now?

How is that insulting? It's pretty much true. It's not really nice, but it's not really mean either.

> Why are you not writing a replacement for systemd?

There are already replacements. I use them in several places, mostly openrc. I'm perfectly allowed to grumble that something's bad and pushed into most distros. Plus, I'm generally stuck using it at work.

Next time you complain about, say, your car breaking down, I'll be sure to advise you to go build your own car.

Re: Cool but obscure X11 tools

#187

Post by z3t4 »

brimstedt wrote: post #177
z3t4 wrote: post #29

Cloud computing is becoming a thing ... eg. apps that runs "in the cloud" or in your browser. But with Xserver you can just ssh -X into any machine, run an app, and the front-end GUI will be visible on your machine! You can even play games that way. Technology keeps going in circles ...

I find xforwarding extremely slow and sluggish. Can/Do you use it efficiently?

It works fine for me, but I can not really see any use cases, as I can just run the app locally. Use case's might be thin devices, like mobile phones and Chromebooks. Instead of running containers on Chromebooks, students could ssh into a computer that has all the apps they need; GUI apps like Photoshop, CAD, etc.

Re: Cool but obscure X11 tools

#188

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

Avamander wrote: post #124
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After his foolish use of alloca() in systemd was revealed, it's clear that the derision is well deserved. One would think that after cutting his teeth on PulseAudio he'd have learned how to write safe, system level C.

Please, it's not like any single other component in Linux desktop is somehow more secure. If anything, most stuff on Linux desktops are majorly more buggier and unsafe, they're just less popular in most cases.

Desktop code can be expected to fail sometimes. Core system components that orchestrate everything, should not. Ever. This requires disciplined programming that doesn't assume the stack is a limitless resource free to abuse and fill with tainted data.

Re: Cool but obscure X11 tools

#189

Post by tomxor »

Accacin wrote: post #163
CameronNemo wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

openrc, runit, s6, upstart* dmix, jack, pipewire * now maintained at https://gitlab.com/chinstrap/startup

I mean, if anything your list proves my point. They're not used at all. Also, I was asking parent for his implementation - I'm assuming he hasn't written any actual code though.

> I was asking parent for his implementation

This is not a valid argument, invalidating discussion of merit of thing based on not having personally created incarnation of said thing would remove 99% of debate of FOSS to no ones benefit.

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