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YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem Is a Business-Model Problem

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Re: YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem Is a Business-Model Problem

#81
post #60

s/(algorithmic|human) moderation/a rule of law/g This mess will only get worse as long as Google insists on trying to fix unsolved social conflicts unilaterally. Google made themselves the primary target when they started to make decisions with large social consequences by fiat. They de facto implemented rule of man [1]. The solution is to not be the sole entity with the power to make decisions about unsolved social…

All countries already have laws regulating speech to various degrees of freedom.

Google's need to comply with these laws is part of the genesis for the moderation (e.g. copyright protection, child pornography).

In fact, aggressive government laws for censorship are why Google chooses not to operate in China.

The topic at hand is about monetization of ads -- the "acceptability" of the content is determined by the ad buyers. Not some idea of social good -- it's just the market.

The problem here is about execution not policy. The plaintiffs argue Google's algorithms are not working as intended, not that their intentions are misguided.

Are you suggesting that Google should create additional authority to regulate itself beyond what is legally required and needed for their business? E.g. create some expert panel that can compel Google to censor certain content? That would create more problems than it would solve.

Re: YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem Is a Business-Model Problem

#82
post #60

s/(algorithmic|human) moderation/a rule of law/g This mess will only get worse as long as Google insists on trying to fix unsolved social conflicts unilaterally. Google made themselves the primary target when they started to make decisions with large social consequences by fiat. They de facto implemented rule of man [1]. The solution is to not be the sole entity with the power to make decisions about unsolved social…

All countries already have laws regulating speech to various degrees of freedom. Google's need to comply with these laws is part of the genesis for the moderation (e.g. copyright protection, child pornography). In fact, aggressive government laws for censorship are why Google chooses not to operate in China. The topic at hand is about monetization of ads -- the "acceptability" of the content is determined by the ad b…

Google was operating in China just fine even with censorship, they left because China started hacking gmail accounts. Some countries have much more rule of law than others.

Re: YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem Is a Business-Model Problem

#84
post #15

Arguing that there's a right to get ad revenue from your videos is a big stretch. Has that ever come up before in the history of free speech? Classic issues are more like "can we make the newspaper run our ad if we pay the regular rates?" Google recently won a lawsuit which complained YouTube was putting conservative content in "restricted" mode.[1] Others complain Google is not doing enough to avoid shoving too many…

It's not just about "not getting ad revenue". It's about accounts getting suspended, homophobic ads running on pro-lgbt videos, and a total lack of enforcement on their harassment policies. https://twitter.com/gaywonk/status/1134264395717103617?lang=...

"homophobic ads running on pro-lgbt videos"

There are homophobic ads on YT? What does that even look like? Can you link to an example?

Re: YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem Is a Business-Model Problem

#85
> Specifically, the lawsuit accuses YouTube of filtering, demonetizing, and otherwise limiting videos that deal with LGBTQ identities, making it hard for their creators to reach a wide audience and make money. The suit alleges violations of free-speech protections and civil rights, among other statutes, and seeks class-action status.

But the youtube isn't a public institution - it's a private platform - does that apply as well even if they would put e.g. banned topics/words in their terms and conditions document? (I'm just curious)

Re: YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem Is a Business-Model Problem

#86
The root cause of this is a mismatch between capitalism and a well functioning, fair society. Again. The earth is dying, the population polarised and our social systems are failing to do their job. Something has to change. There must be another model out there that doesn't devolve into horror, as both capitalism and communism seem destined to do. We need to revisit the 60's only this time we need an actionable plan and the will to follow through or our children's children aren't going to make it. Don't balk at this, our structural problems are existential.

Re: YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem Is a Business-Model Problem

#87
post #60

s/(algorithmic|human) moderation/a rule of law/g This mess will only get worse as long as Google insists on trying to fix unsolved social conflicts unilaterally. Google made themselves the primary target when they started to make decisions with large social consequences by fiat. They de facto implemented rule of man [1]. The solution is to not be the sole entity with the power to make decisions about unsolved social…

All countries already have laws regulating speech to various degrees of freedom. Google's need to comply with these laws is part of the genesis for the moderation (e.g. copyright protection, child pornography). In fact, aggressive government laws for censorship are why Google chooses not to operate in China. The topic at hand is about monetization of ads -- the "acceptability" of the content is determined by the ad b…

> All countries already have laws regulating speech to various degrees of freedom.

This is mostly unrelated to what I'm talking about.

> The topic at hand is about monetization of ads

That's one (important) aspect of "YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem", but it is not the only issue. As others have mentioned, some of Google's attempts to "fix" the problem have, for example, been used as a weapon by various hate groups to get LGBTQ channels deleted (not just demonetized), or by fascists to remove anti-fascist reporting.

> the "acceptability" of the content is determined by the ad buyers

A big part of the problem is that this isn't actually true in practice. The "acceptability" of content is determined by Google's algorithm. They chose to use an opaque algorithm that they hope implements a very good approximation of what ad buyers consider "acceptable". As we've seen many times over the last few years, this has resulted in problems on all sides, including ad buyers.

> it's just the market

"just" a market ignores that markets are created in an legal environment that can be modified (e.g. adding, modifying, or removing regulations or policies)

> The problem here is about execution not policy.

The problem for Google is that they are choosing to have any policy at all. They are implementing opaque policies and thus are the only party that can be responsible for the resulting mess.

> The plaintiffs argue

Not relevant to my point;' I'm addressing the fundamental problem with Google's management of youtube (or similar platforms), not any particular case.

> Are you suggesting that Google should create additional authority to regulate itself beyond what is legally required and needed for their business?

More or less, yes. If decisions about monetization, video censorship, channel deletion, etc are going to be made, they need to happen through some kind of well-defined due process (aka being "ruled by laws"). Google could define that process unilaterally - which would be a major improvement from the current opaque and arbitrary status quo - but the best option would be to start some type of open/public entity/process for creating and managing what is meant by "due process on youtube".

> create some expert panel that can compel Google to censor certain content?

That already exists! That panel is whatever group inside Google chose the algorithm(s) that has been demonetizing and/or censoring videos over the last few years. I'm suggesting that transparent, publicly accountable panel is better than a hidden panel of unknown Google employees. Yes, both types will have problems, but at least we can see and attempt to fix the panel when it is public.

Re: YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem Is a Business-Model Problem

#88
There's an assumption if you use human raters, you won't have false negatives or positives, but even human beings disagree over how to categorize speech, what's homophobic, what's legitimate sarcasm or irony, what is violent content.

In fact, on top of human raters exhibiting classification problems in the face of ambiguity, there is also the issue of bias. Radiolab on NPR had a great series on Facebook's human censors that shows it just opens up a different pandora's box.

There is no clear, non-messy way to do censorship that doesn't end up with a sizable number of people mad, and with some subset of people hit by accidental or deliberate false positives.

I'm afraid there's no easy answer and it will inherently be constant battle and fight between sides.

Re: YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem Is a Business-Model Problem

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What about crowdsourcing efforts? Why are user flags insufficient? Because this will devolve into different groups flagging their opponents' videos. This will especially hurt the voices of minorities and other vulnerable populations.

What about attaching a 'reputation' score to the flagger? E.g. something like: - if there are sufficient flags, trigger a moderator review - flaggers who correctly flagged content get +1 score or -1 score if not that would make it harder for people to consistently flag content maliciously. Like age-old moderation systems such as calling 911 or police. If you abuse calling 911, you can get fined. I imagine this has be…

You don't think they tried everything already? Youtube did that with Youtube Heroes a few years ago:

https://www.adweek.com/digital/youtube-heroes-will-let-users...

Re: YouTube’s LGBTQ Problem Is a Business-Model Problem

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about "not getting ad revenue". It's about accounts getting suspended, homophobic ads running on pro-lgbt videos, and a total lack of enforcement on their harassment policies. https://twitter.com/gaywonk/status/1134264395717103617?lang=...

"homophobic ads running on pro-lgbt videos" There are homophobic ads on YT? What does that even look like? Can you link to an example?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC3OOXD_2MA
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