Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents • Hacker News Board

Re: Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents

#71

Post by chrisjc » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:33 PM UTC

weq wrote: post #11

TDLR; Company owned by oppressive regime helps other oppressive regimes prosper in exchange for unfetted access to the countries resources. There is news here. But its not about spying. https://greenworldwarriors.com/2019/03/06/ugandas-main-asset... https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2134438/chin...

As mentioned in another story on HN, the Huawei ownership structure is a little more complicated than you suggest, although the essence is the same.

Listen to the Acquired podcast for a more thorough history of Huawei. https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/huawei

Re: Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents

#72

Post by yorwba » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 6:51 PM UTC

CharlesColeman wrote: post #69

yorwba wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the trade union and its committee function as trade unions generally function in China, then Huawei may be deemed effectively state-owned. That's the "they're Chinese, so obviously they can't be independent" argument. It not necessarily wrong, but also not terribly illuminating. As you say, a more interesting question is that of control. Given the level of disunity within the Chinese government, a useful answer…

> That's the "they're Chinese, so obviously they can't be independent" argument. It not necessarily wrong, but also not terribly illuminating. What do you mean by that? China doesn't have independent trade unions, because the Chinese Communist Party doesn't allow political organization outside of its control, which independent trade unions would be . It's worth pointing that out because western misconceptions could c…

> What do you mean by that?

By that I mean that there's no need to trace ownership to the trade union and conclude that because independent trade unions aren't allowed, the company can't be independent either. You could just go straight to Article 17 of the Company Law of the People's Republic of China [1], which reads

"The grass-root organizations of the Communist Party of China in companies shall carry out their activities in accordance with the Constitution of the Communist Party of China."

So no Chinese company could possibly be independent, trade union or not. That's on paper anyway. In practice, Chinese companies undermine each other and government agencies all the time, instead of harmoniously cooperating to fulfill the CCP's grand plan. Similarly, membership in the ACFTU doesn't tell you anything about the actual power dynamics.

[1] http://english.court.gov.cn/2016-04/14/content_24532981_2.ht...

Re: Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents

#73

Post by waterdownship » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 8:19 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #51

close04 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the real problem: China/Huawei are pushing their competition out of the "support an (oppressive) regime" business. They become the go-to partner for regimes that historically relied on western or middle-eastern partners maintaining their authority.

Maybe merely a quality choice! If you want to buy a nice car, you go for a German brand, if you want fine wine, go French, if you want software, go American, if you want an orwellian mass surveillance system, you go with the country which speciality it is!

Cisco allegedly helped China built their surveillance system in the first place.

Re: Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents

#74

Post by waterdownship » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 8:20 PM UTC

_ptgt wrote: post #64

Barrin92 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's still an ally, more than the Chinese will ever be. The US has no concept for Africa, because unlike China which uses infrastructure projects and investment as a way to offload its export surplus the US is an overwhelmingly domestic economy. There will never be an American 'Belt and Road' because it just doesn't make much sense for a country that has so little international economic exposure, whenever the US for…

Even this framing is suspect -- China has very publicly been trying to shift from an export-driven economy to a domestic consumption economy recently. I question how stable the relationship is when that stability rests on the assumption China fails to meet its economic goals.

Trying to, means they are currently not.

Re: Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents

#75

Post by NicoJuicy » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 8:38 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #52

NicoJuicy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still an ally, more than the Chinese will ever be. Just wait and see, the loans you are getting ( not investments) are for Chinese workers. The loans are at 4-6% if the work isn't executed by Chinese workers. That's not an ally

>It's still an ally, more than the Chinese will ever be. The US has no concept for Africa, because unlike China which uses infrastructure projects and investment as a way to offload its export surplus the US is an overwhelmingly domestic economy. There will never be an American 'Belt and Road' because it just doesn't make much sense for a country that has so little international economic exposure, whenever the US for…

> There will never be an American 'Belt and Road' because it just doesn't make much sense for a country that has so little international economic exposure

It's not because of a domestic economy. It's because a freight/boat is much more economical than a train and a train doesn't make any sense.

It's only here ( now ), because it's heavy subsidized by China and an excuse for modern colonialism.

PS. A lot of ( sane / healthy) infrastructure works are happening in Africa with Europe / US though. But if it's not feasible, it ain't going to happen. That's where the Chinese come in to burry them in debt.

Re: Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents

#76

Post by NicoJuicy » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 8:40 PM UTC

dangerface wrote: post #60

NicoJuicy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is. It's only funds, not resources. Give me some trustworthy resources that say the IMF is both. The Western world has been giving back colonies from a dark past. That's a higher standard. Fyi, the entire world has dark pasts, some more successful than others.

> The Western world has been giving back colonies from a dark past. No they won their independence from wars, most of the colonies that where "given back" won their independence through fighting in world war 1 and 2, there are very few exceptions to this rule.

Well, Belgium gave back Congo and they did have resistance against colonialism ( rightfully so).

But, Congo seems to fail to be independant and corruption seems to have gotten way worse.

Re: Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents

#77

Post by NicoJuicy » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

rolltiide wrote: post #43

NicoJuicy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is. It's only funds, not resources. Give me some trustworthy resources that say the IMF is both. The Western world has been giving back colonies from a dark past. That's a higher standard. Fyi, the entire world has dark pasts, some more successful than others.

I made an edit, I meant World Bank and USAID as they don't only lend to member countries. I don't have sources I would quote, but I have enough to be told to look over there and see the cause and effect. Developing countries are saddled with debt, and further crippled. Recipients of the debt are contractors. Austerity measures are needed to repay the debt, and the citizens are the ones burdened by it to help extract…

Debt has gone way worse since the Chinese came in for loans though ;)

PS. No sources to quote, that's a bummer. Everyone thinks to see all causes and effects. I do not agree with this one.

The West has been mostly fair in the digital age, while China doesn't. That's the cause and effect i see.

Re: Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents

#78

Post by Barrin92 » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 9:05 PM UTC

_ptgt wrote: post #64

Barrin92 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's still an ally, more than the Chinese will ever be. The US has no concept for Africa, because unlike China which uses infrastructure projects and investment as a way to offload its export surplus the US is an overwhelmingly domestic economy. There will never be an American 'Belt and Road' because it just doesn't make much sense for a country that has so little international economic exposure, whenever the US for…

Even this framing is suspect -- China has very publicly been trying to shift from an export-driven economy to a domestic consumption economy recently. I question how stable the relationship is when that stability rests on the assumption China fails to meet its economic goals.

China is still a country with significant room for industrial expansion with hundreds of millions of people moving from rural to urban areas adding to the manufacturing workforce, the country as a whole has not reached levels of prosperity that would produce a consumer driven economy, and one also needs to account for the heavy influence of export-led sectors on policy-making and the state-led economy which doesn't tend to lend itself well to consumer sectors.

And also quite importantly as China climbs up the value chain it will increasingly seek to outsource to cheaper countries, as it has already started doing in Pakistan, one of the major hubs of the Belt and Road initiative. And given the quite authoritarian system, it will probably do so quite effectively without facing the political backlash that workers in the United States have caused.

Re: Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents

#79

Post by squarefoot » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

arcticfox wrote: post #61

ivanhoe wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Serbia it was primarily Israelis who sold all of the surveillance tech to the government, and now China seems to be pushing everyone else out of the market. It really makes a very little difference to common people, one foreign actor or the other, none of the sides is really altruistic in that game...

Israel is very powerful and ambitious for its size, but at 8 million people they're fundamentally limited in what kind of power they can or would want to project. No matter how advanced your intelligence or military there's just so far you can go when you're so tiny. China on the other hand has almost 8 million people for every country on Earth . Imagine how many people they could assign to messing with each country…

Israel gets $3.8 billions worth of weapons and other military equipment every year from the US because of its vital strategic importance. If someone messes with them that would be just like messing with an US state abroad; probably nobody would want to test that possibility.

Re: Huawei Technicians Helped African Governments Spy on Political Opponents

#80

Post by scanny » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 11:13 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #50

scanny wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the difference here is that in a liberal democracy we can prevent that from happening if we wish. Unless we don't have a majority that is https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-vetoes-congres...

no in a liberal democracy you can pretend that you could prevent it so that everyone can feel better about themselves while it happens

You can feel pessimistic all you want, but the fact is that the framework of this government allows the population to cause change and punishes those who try to go around it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair#Aft...