Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#411

Post by thoughtfunction » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 5:41 AM UTC

magduf wrote: post #324

monocasa wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In another 10 to 20 years that won't matter with Moore's law slowing down. Globally competitive foundaries are one of the CCP's goals, and the same slow down that let TSMC surpase Intel will let some Chinese foundary surpass or equal TSMC. Their competitive edge is going to erode away to commodification (albeit for those who can stomach.the huge capital investment).

TSMC has never been very competitive with Intel. Intel has long been a leader in semiconductor manufacturing, but they almost exclusively used it for making their own chips; they weren't a contract fab. TSMC, on the other hand, has always been a contract manufacturer.

Recently the story has been TSMC is pulling ahead of intel in process nodes and intel has been missing deadlines, but this inversion has only happened in the last few years.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#412

Post by RobertKerans » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 7:53 AM UTC

tus88 wrote: post #390

RobertKerans wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you most definitely do. Be it for suppression ("British troops entered West Belfast", "The Syrian army entered Aleppo"), for removing occupiers ("French troops entered Paris", "Croatian troops entered Dubrovnik"), or whatever ("National Guard entered the Waco compound")

But aren't all those cases where the status of the city is unclear? Have I missed some news about Shenzhen?

The city is a container, and a large paramilitary suppression force moved from being outside that container to being inside the container. I'm just a bit baffled here.

A armoured paramilitary troops were deployed to the geographic area of Shenzen. Travelling in convoys, they entered the city of Shenzen, where they seem to be currently marshalled in a sports stadium. They are there as a direct threat and the assumption is that they will leave Shenzhen and enter Hong Kong to begin suppression

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#413

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 8:04 AM UTC

lstodd wrote: post #207

krageon wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that a powerful nation has not deeply owned every large-scale protest is in my experience extremely naive. Either the protest has no teeth or it's penetrated all the way to the top with either government agents or extensive surveillance. This means that action outside of what the government feels like dealing with means arrests (no matter how temporary) and that any action that is taken means that the govern…

Assuming a modern protest has anything that can be called 'top' is extremely naive. There is no hierarchy that can be suborned.

[deleted]

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#414

Post by krageon » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 8:12 AM UTC

woah wrote: post #156

krageon wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean when you say "honorary Europe", because I am certain it does not mean what I expect it to mean: A fundamentally fair and well-functioning society with very few if any governmental killings and high stability within it's borders.

You should read about Spain

It's warm, they like seafood, they used to have a big empire and they're a part of Europe. Is there a specific direction you had in mind for my reading, making this a worthy comment instead of an empty bit of snark?

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#415

Post by tombh » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 9:03 AM UTC

malms wrote: post #395

tombh wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responsibility for justice. Perhaps legally nothing will ever happen, but without moral justice, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". The opinions and freedoms of the Chinese in 1842 were the same as Hong Kong's are now: to remain as they were and not become part of a different nation. So if you believe that Hong Kong deserves independence now, then you need to also believe that it deserve…

> Responsibility for justice. That's one of the most stupid politically correct ideas of the modern times. Thinking descendants of perpetrators owe anything to descendant of victim fails to account that, in most cases, the victims would actually have done the same than th eperpetrators had they be in the similar position of power (see slavery / natives vs europeans). It's bullshit. It's human nature that people abuse…

Justice isn't a soppy feel-good, everybody hug now thing. As the quote says, it's about the method of escaping the cycles of history. Of course descendants can't be blamed for the past, and that's not what anybody is saying. It might not be fair but the only way we can build a more peaceful future is by taking responsibility for the past. I can understand how that sounds similar to taking the blame, but it's fundamentally different.

Eg; I sure as hell didn't write the buggy code that brought down the production site. I can shout all I want that I don't owe anything to the clients, or I can just take responsibility for the fix and we all move on with our lives.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#416

Post by simonh » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 10:30 AM UTC

tombh wrote: post #394

simonh wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responsibility for what? Either the people of Hong Kong are entitled to their opinions and freedoms, or they are not. I don't see why the actions of some dead British guys from 150 years ago have anything to do with whether that it true or not? Nobody is spinning the opium wars in any way. You are the one who brought up the topic.

Responsibility for justice. Perhaps legally nothing will ever happen, but without moral justice, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". The opinions and freedoms of the Chinese in 1842 were the same as Hong Kong's are now: to remain as they were and not become part of a different nation. So if you believe that Hong Kong deserves independence now, then you need to also believe that it deserve…

Justice for who, right now, and on what issue? Most of your comments are very frustratingly vague. I've no real idea what specifically you are actually criticising or advising.

>They didn't have that sentiment force upon them by guns from a foreign military might.

The current population of Hong Kong didn't have their current status imposed on them by people with guns either. Yet. They, like you and I, were simply born into a political and economic environment not of their making. I think it's reasonable for any of us to have an opinion about whether having anything forced on them by guns now is acceptable or not.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#417

Post by joelx » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #149

baybal2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a better memory, this is how it was: 1. Local police was sent, it either did nothing or deserted 2. Troops from BJ itself were sent in, largely the same happened 3. Liaoning military region troops were called, they fared just a bit better than BJ troops, made few attack attempts, but nevertheless withdrew 4. Finally, as Beijing was getting more and more desperate, Shaanxi military region troops - "the pri…

Not to detract from your point that it took them a while to find troops willing to actually follow their orders, but you got some details wrong. Neither Liaoning nor Shaanxi were military regions at the time, Liaoning province belonging to the Shenyang Military Region and Shaanxi being part of the Lanzhou Military Region. The troops that were finally called in were part of the Beijing Military Region, mostly from Heb…

We need to offer the freedom fighters in Hong Kong the opportunity to evacuate and move to a free country. It is an ethical and moral imperative.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#418

Post by tombh » Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #416

tombh wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responsibility for justice. Perhaps legally nothing will ever happen, but without moral justice, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". The opinions and freedoms of the Chinese in 1842 were the same as Hong Kong's are now: to remain as they were and not become part of a different nation. So if you believe that Hong Kong deserves independence now, then you need to also believe that it deserve…

Justice for who, right now, and on what issue? Most of your comments are very frustratingly vague. I've no real idea what specifically you are actually criticising or advising. >They didn't have that sentiment force upon them by guns from a foreign military might. The current population of Hong Kong didn't have their current status imposed on them by people with guns either. Yet. They, like you and I, were simply bor…

For sure I don't think I've made myself clear enough, that's all on me, I'm sorry. So just for the sake of clarity let me over simplify it.

Imagine that my long-term girlfriend who worked in a coffee shop all her life found out her boss was a murderous drug dealer. Instead of quitting she becomes the company accountant thus taking a massive pay raise that I in turn benefit from. The company doesn't directly break the law but we have some vague idea that it wouldn't be as successful as it is if it wasn't for the connections the boss has. Neither I nor my girlfriend ever did or ever will do anything morally wrong. We enjoy the freedoms the extra money gives us. One day the police find out about the boss's illegal activities and it looks like the company will have to be dissolved.

In this circumstance I completely agree that I and my girlfriend have a right to feel distressed our quality of life is about to be drastically lowered. However, considering the circumstances, I have no right to be outraged at my government for not supporting my rights to indirectly enjoy the money my girlfriend gets from a company that built its niche through mafia activities.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#419

Post by simonh » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 8:35 AM UTC

tombh wrote: post #418

simonh wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justice for who, right now, and on what issue? Most of your comments are very frustratingly vague. I've no real idea what specifically you are actually criticising or advising. >They didn't have that sentiment force upon them by guns from a foreign military might. The current population of Hong Kong didn't have their current status imposed on them by people with guns either. Yet. They, like you and I, were simply bor…

For sure I don't think I've made myself clear enough, that's all on me, I'm sorry. So just for the sake of clarity let me over simplify it. Imagine that my long-term girlfriend who worked in a coffee shop all her life found out her boss was a murderous drug dealer. Instead of quitting she becomes the company accountant thus taking a massive pay raise that I in turn benefit from. The company doesn't directly break the…

To counter your example. Suppose your great, great grandchildren found out about that story. How relevant do you think they would find it to their decisions about their lives, assuming they have no knowledge or anything to do with drug dealing or criminal activity themselves?

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#420

Post by tombh » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 10:44 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #419

tombh wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure I don't think I've made myself clear enough, that's all on me, I'm sorry. So just for the sake of clarity let me over simplify it. Imagine that my long-term girlfriend who worked in a coffee shop all her life found out her boss was a murderous drug dealer. Instead of quitting she becomes the company accountant thus taking a massive pay raise that I in turn benefit from. The company doesn't directly break the…

To counter your example. Suppose your great, great grandchildren found out about that story. How relevant do you think they would find it to their decisions about their lives, assuming they have no knowledge or anything to do with drug dealing or criminal activity themselves?

You're right, it's completely irrelevant to them. But can you honestly say that the mainland Chinese great, great children have also forgotten about it? Why not? It's because it's convenient for HK to forget whilst it was a fundamentally defining moment for China that influenced the end of the Qing dynasty, the end of over 2000 years of imperial rule and the creation of the communist-based political ideologies we see today. But by your logic everyone forgets about everything given enough time? That just strikes me as naive and a form of denial.

I still don't think you understand my point. I'm not saying that HK doesn't have a right to fight. I'm saying that they're not like Taiwan or all the other peoples that naturally came to their differentiated political stance - HK simply doesn't have history and destiny on its side, so it's always going to be that much more of a struggle.

Maybe another example will make it clearer. I have the right to protest against the bear that's attacking me, but I don't have a right to ask the world to change the fundamental nature of bears as if its a matter of geopolitics. Bears will always be bears. Bear violence has nothing to do with communism or democracy. And so it's a waste of energy to entertain that idea.

I don't like what China is doing to HK, but Britain walked into bear territory. Let's not argue about how wrong bears are, let's be sober and treat bears as bears, not as symbols of anti-democracy that might somehow appeal to diplomacy.