Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing • Hacker News Board

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#191

Post by derefr » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

GhostVII wrote: post #177

derefr wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the particular revenue model of the marketplace that causes the problem—the one where cashflow all fans-in from advertisers to YouTube itself, and then from there back out to content creators according to view metrics. YouTube content creators have responded to the flaws in this model by choosing a better one: one where advertisers pay them directly; they put the ad directly into the video; and YouTube isn't inv…

Who pays for the hosting costs then? It is very expensive for YouTube to host all of the videos that they do, and they way they pay for that is taking a portion of advertising revenue. Small YouTubers are subsidized by larger ones, since larger creators give YouTube the ad revenue they need to pay for the costs of hosting all of the videos that don't get much ad revenue. If YouTubers stop using YouTube ads entirely,…

In such an alternative approach, YouTube would still be taking a cut of the fees as the payment-processor interceding between advertisers and content-creators. Their business model would be equivalent to that of Patreon's, in the sense that when the content-creator gets paid, they get paid.

With current YouTube, any fees paid in by advertisers are theirs to do with as they like, and payment-of-content-creators is just a nice thing that YouTube happens to do, but can not-do on a whim with no ill effects. "Revenue from advertisers" and "expenses paying out content-creators" are two entirely independent lines on their balance sheet.

In this alternate model, the money they would receive from advertisers would now be a liability on their balance-sheet, something owed (except for the fraction taken as fee) to the content creator, just as if it was money in a savings account they were holding for the content-creator.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#192

Post by knotsies » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

nordsieck wrote: post #170

La-ang wrote: post #162

Can youtubers go on strike and take the content down for a limited time? If such an option is available and they do it, it would be a relevant strike. But since those who are joining the Union are the one demonetized provides that Youtube isn't making as much profit from their presence as those who are still running ads. In such case, the former ones will need a way to engage those who make profit align with their do…

> Can youtubers go on strike and take the content down for a limited time? In order for that to be effective, a strike needs to remove enough capability from the other party to materially affect them. In this case, with so many videos online, I'd bet creators would need to get perhaps 95%-99% of recent videos taken down. They won't get anywhere close. Right out of the gate, news and music won't join in the strike. Al…

I feel like a very strong effect could be had if popular creators move their content to other providers. While they might not be able to take down a huge percentage of all recent videos on YouTube, they could redirect the attention of enough users to have a very strong impact on YouTube's ad revenue.

Say someone is a die-hard fan of Pewdiepie--he's the reason that user opens YouTube on a daily basis. This user watches his daily video, but might also watch some news and music from their recommendations after the video ends. If Pewdiepie moves his content somewhere else, that user might not end up viewing that related content on YouTube anymore.

I'm really interested to see how these shared groups of fans cooperate with union efforts. Given how close of a connection many popular creators have with their fans, a call for a boycott could impact a lot more than just those creators.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#193

Post by root_axis » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 9:45 PM UTC

debt wrote: post #188

root_axis wrote: post #172

YouTube does not employ creators; creators are utilizing YouTube's free service in order to broadcast their own content. Google demonetizes videos in order to be more appealing to advertisers , ultimately the problem these creators have is that advertisers are not willing to pay for their content. YouTube only makes money when the content creator does, so naturally they'd be happy to monetize anything they could.

YouTube sets the rates it pays creators not the advertisers. A union would require YouTube doesn't arbitrarily change the rates it pays it's creators and also might be able to prevent them from instantly demonetizing videos. A union would create stability in the marketplace. For example, if you're contracted to do a job, the client doesn't usually arbitrarily change the rates it's paying you unless you have some cont…

Just to be clear, I am not opposed to the idea of creators banding together to negotiate collectively in order to get better terms from YouTube - I think if they can build a coalition powerful enough to accomplish this it'd be a good thing and I'd say more power to them!

My point is that YouTube does not employ creators, they offer a free service to creators without any guarantees. I'm also pointing out that YouTube does not want to demonetize videos because demonetizing a video costs YouTube money (they host and stream the video for free, but get no revenue in return) and any changes to YouTube's business operations that would reduce the amount of videos that get demonetized would very obviously benefit YouTube.

> if you're contracted to do a job, the client doesn't usually arbitrarily change the rates it's paying you unless you have some contractual agreement to do so(overtime, paid leave, etc.).

YouTube is not contracting creators to do a job, creators are uploading their content to YouTube at no cost to them, and in exchange, YouTube offers a cut of the ad revenue to the creators if YouTube can successfully monetize the video. Whenever a video is demonetized YouTube loses.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#194

Post by chillacy » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 9:48 PM UTC

hirundo wrote: post #49

chillacy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ebay? The flea market of the internet? You disregard ebay but ebay actually has economic alignment with its sellers. The buyer experience isn't as good as Amazon's, but the seller experience is better in that you can control your destiny more. But this apparently makes it a flea market? There's going to be a tradeoff between curation and producer freedom. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Apparently you took the flea market comparison as disparaging and it was intended that way. Why? What's wrong with flea markets? I shop there regularly and have sold there many times. I usually get great deals there on either side of the transaction. I can say the same about Ebay. For Ebay to be a kind of vast internet flea market seems like a good thing.

It reads even more disparaging with context:

> Nowhere. There's no other amazon. Ebay? The flea market of the internet? That's where people who wanted to sell to wal-mart go.

If I wanted to make it sound good I'd call it a bazaar or something.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#195

Post by autoexec » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 9:48 PM UTC

anon1m0us wrote: post #39

mrec wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The internet has turned to garbage. The ad-supported internet has turned to garbage. The academic and hobbyist internet is fine, and not that much different from the old days. The governmental internet depends a lot on where you are, but .gov.uk is really rather good, and vastly better at what it does than snailmail and Post Offices were in the old days.

I went to a government website the other day. 5 pages of forms I filled out several times. Each time on the final page, "system error, cannot proceed." I called the agency, they said, "You should print out the PDF, fill that out and bring it to our office." Can you believe that?? There aren't enough programmers to make the .gov stuff work right because FAANG is buying them all. So, I'm not sure you are right on that.

I've also seen a number of .gov sites that require googleapis or use google and other trackers. .gov is very much involved with monetization and tracking

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#196

Post by jonas21 » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 9:50 PM UTC

debt wrote: post #188

root_axis wrote: post #172

YouTube does not employ creators; creators are utilizing YouTube's free service in order to broadcast their own content. Google demonetizes videos in order to be more appealing to advertisers , ultimately the problem these creators have is that advertisers are not willing to pay for their content. YouTube only makes money when the content creator does, so naturally they'd be happy to monetize anything they could.

YouTube sets the rates it pays creators not the advertisers. A union would require YouTube doesn't arbitrarily change the rates it pays it's creators and also might be able to prevent them from instantly demonetizing videos. A union would create stability in the marketplace. For example, if you're contracted to do a job, the client doesn't usually arbitrarily change the rates it's paying you unless you have some cont…

> YouTube sets the rates it pays creators not the advertisers.

Isn't the price the creator gets paid determined by advertisers bidding in an auction?

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#197

Post by sakekasi » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #193

debt wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YouTube sets the rates it pays creators not the advertisers. A union would require YouTube doesn't arbitrarily change the rates it pays it's creators and also might be able to prevent them from instantly demonetizing videos. A union would create stability in the marketplace. For example, if you're contracted to do a job, the client doesn't usually arbitrarily change the rates it's paying you unless you have some cont…

Just to be clear, I am not opposed to the idea of creators banding together to negotiate collectively in order to get better terms from YouTube - I think if they can build a coalition powerful enough to accomplish this it'd be a good thing and I'd say more power to them! My point is that YouTube does not employ creators, they offer a free service to creators without any guarantees. I'm also pointing out that YouTube…

Point taken on that definition, but as tech companies create new markets (e.g. YouTube, Uber, etc.) I think the definition of employee will evolve as well

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#198

Post by root_axis » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

sakekasi wrote: post #197

root_axis wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, I am not opposed to the idea of creators banding together to negotiate collectively in order to get better terms from YouTube - I think if they can build a coalition powerful enough to accomplish this it'd be a good thing and I'd say more power to them! My point is that YouTube does not employ creators, they offer a free service to creators without any guarantees. I'm also pointing out that YouTube…

Point taken on that definition, but as tech companies create new markets (e.g. YouTube, Uber, etc.) I think the definition of employee will evolve as well

Perhaps. I'm curious how you might envision a future definition of "employee" that would cause YouTube creators to be considered employees of YouTube.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#199

Post by topmonk » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

La-ang wrote: post #162

Can youtubers go on strike and take the content down for a limited time? If such an option is available and they do it, it would be a relevant strike. But since those who are joining the Union are the one demonetized provides that Youtube isn't making as much profit from their presence as those who are still running ads. In such case, the former ones will need a way to engage those who make profit align with their do…

A better option would be to start publishing content to another platform enmasse. Not only could they hold out longer, it would strike right at the heart of YouTube's main advantage, which is to be the defacto video platform.

Re: Watch Out Google, YouTubers Are Unionizing

#200

Post by egypturnash » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #198

sakekasi wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point taken on that definition, but as tech companies create new markets (e.g. YouTube, Uber, etc.) I think the definition of employee will evolve as well

Perhaps. I'm curious how you might envision a future definition of "employee" that would cause YouTube creators to be considered employees of YouTube.

I feel like there is a line to be drawn somewhere around the points where you start referring to yourself as a "YouTuber" and where other people regularly describe you as one.

More broadly, this same line may exist for any site/company somewhere around the point where whatever awkward construction for "person who regularly posts on site X" or "person who regularly does gig work for company X" starts getting applied to you a lot.

I have no idea how to even begin to define this in legal terms. :)