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Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

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Re: Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

#21

Post by teyc »

rbanffy wrote: post #13
gpjt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, seriously, Windows failed once on RISC platforms because software vendors were not interested in supporting them. Can an ARM-based Windows desktop function when the only software it runs is Windows? I guess a lot depends on how much developers embrace .NET; .NET apps are compiled to CLR bytecode which presumably could run on ARM devices just as easily as on Intel.

> CLR bytecode which presumably could run on ARM devices just as easily as on Intel. It's doubtful if performance would not degrade so much as to make desktop software made to run on the x86 .NET runtime unacceptably slow on ARM.

The most CPU demanding work on a mobile phone is actually the user interface, and on WP7 this is offloaded to hardware. I see no reason why ARM tablets running Windows would be necessarily slower.

Re: Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

#22

Post by kes »

jsz0 wrote: post #18

This could be a good opportunity for Microsoft to dump a ton of legacy baggage in Windows 8. Windows developers will ultimately need to support ARM/x86 and the path of least resistance is going to be Microsoft's latest & greatest framework. Great time to draw a line in the sand and reinvent Windows. Microsoft can send the message to developers that if you want your app to run on Windows 8 you need to stop using that…

This might be a stupid question, but that's exactly like the OSX/OS9 switch, right?

Re: Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

#23

Post by maximilianburke »

gpjt wrote: post #9
rbanffy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can smell their fear. As long as I can buy an ARM-based netbook subsidized by crapware/adware on Windows 8 and replace the thing with a decent OS, I'll be happy. Sadly, I won't be able to brag about using a Windows-proof computer anymore... Now, seriously, Windows failed once on RISC platforms because software vendors were not interested in supporting them. Can an ARM-based Windows desktop function when the only…

Now, seriously, Windows failed once on RISC platforms because software vendors were not interested in supporting them. Can an ARM-based Windows desktop function when the only software it runs is Windows? I guess a lot depends on how much developers embrace .NET; .NET apps are compiled to CLR bytecode which presumably could run on ARM devices just as easily as on Intel.

> I guess a lot depends on how much developers embrace .NET; .NET apps are compiled to CLR bytecode which presumably could run on ARM devices just as easily as on Intel.

The only problem I think would be with mixed assemblies, those containing both native and managed code, which can exist for PC applications. XNA games for example run on PowerPC (Xbox 360) and ARM (Zune/WP7) but their development is much more constrained than PC applications.

Re: Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

#24

Post by varaon »

kes wrote: post #22
jsz0 wrote: post #18

This could be a good opportunity for Microsoft to dump a ton of legacy baggage in Windows 8. Windows developers will ultimately need to support ARM/x86 and the path of least resistance is going to be Microsoft's latest & greatest framework. Great time to draw a line in the sand and reinvent Windows. Microsoft can send the message to developers that if you want your app to run on Windows 8 you need to stop using that…

This might be a stupid question, but that's exactly like the OSX/OS9 switch, right?

Yes, and MS already has something similar to Classic mode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Virtual_PC#Windows_XP_M...

Re: Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

#25

Post by wtallis »

kes wrote: post #22
jsz0 wrote: post #18

This could be a good opportunity for Microsoft to dump a ton of legacy baggage in Windows 8. Windows developers will ultimately need to support ARM/x86 and the path of least resistance is going to be Microsoft's latest & greatest framework. Great time to draw a line in the sand and reinvent Windows. Microsoft can send the message to developers that if you want your app to run on Windows 8 you need to stop using that…

This might be a stupid question, but that's exactly like the OSX/OS9 switch, right?

It would be more like the OS 9 -> OS X switch happening at the same time as the PPC -> Intel transition, but without the old CPU architecture being totally deprecated.

Apple's notable for having made 3 major transitions (68k to PPC, MacOS to OS X, and PPC to Intel), but all three of those were as minimal as they could be given the circumstances. The architecture transitions were made with almost completely transparent binary compatibility and minimal changes needed for source code, while the source-incompatible OS/API change was made as gradual as possible with a long grace period (which a few companies chose to exploit rather than update their apps before it was too late).

Windows as a system is clearly not clean enough at the moment to easily switch architectures without needing a lot of complex compatibility stuff thrown in. If they try to force developers off old APIs and introduce a new architecture, that new architecture will be a second class citizen and will need a lot of external factors to give it traction.

Re: Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

#26

Post by ori_b »

jsz0 wrote: post #18

This could be a good opportunity for Microsoft to dump a ton of legacy baggage in Windows 8. Windows developers will ultimately need to support ARM/x86 and the path of least resistance is going to be Microsoft's latest & greatest framework. Great time to draw a line in the sand and reinvent Windows. Microsoft can send the message to developers that if you want your app to run on Windows 8 you need to stop using that…

They did that already. It's called .NET

Re: Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

#27

Post by kenjackson »

rbanffy wrote: post #8
[deleted] wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

> Windows failed on RISC because when x86 proved too competitive I remember distinctly how much faster Alpha-based workstations were in comparison to its Pentium Pro cousins. Unfortunately, I couldn't run many programs I had to (Office, for instance, ran under emulation, at Pentium-like speeds). I could run SQL Server and pretty much that was it. And notepad. And Minesweeper. I can imagine a niche for high-density AR…

But there is the Cortex A-15 which puts ARM in the Intel perf ballgame. Not surprisingly, I've heard grumblings for nearly the past decade of an ARM version of Windows in various states of stability. It will be interesting to see how far along this is.

The issue with x86 and clocks had little do with Windows, and more with the Blue Crystal effect (MHz sell CPUs not perf). There's a great insider book about this called "The Pentium Chronicles" by the chief architect of the P6.

Re: Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

#28

Post by 6ren »

The problem Microsoft faces is that the primary selling point of Windows is the third-party software... which won't run on ARM.

Solutions: all providers recompile for ARM (unmanageable). W8 emulates x86 (slow). W8 does very tricky JIT recompilation of x86 to ARM, as if it were a VM (amazing).

Launching .Net a few years back means that at least all software written for that is trivially retargeted. A clever (or serendipitous?) leveraging of its platform.

Apple tackled this problem differently: by banning alternative software platforms from iPhone/iPad, they rapidly created a substantial 3rd party software base of native apps from nothing.

Re: Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

#29

Post by brudgers »

wtallis wrote: post #25
kes wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be a stupid question, but that's exactly like the OSX/OS9 switch, right?

It would be more like the OS 9 -> OS X switch happening at the same time as the PPC -> Intel transition, but without the old CPU architecture being totally deprecated. Apple's notable for having made 3 major transitions (68k to PPC, MacOS to OS X, and PPC to Intel), but all three of those were as minimal as they could be given the circumstances. The architecture transitions were made with almost completely transparen…

>"Windows as a system is clearly not clean enough at the moment to easily switch architectures without needing a lot of complex compatibility stuff thrown in."

Windows currently runs on two radically different architectures...x86/x64 and Itanium. It has for more than nine years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itanium#Architecture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP_editions#Windows_XP_...

Re: Windows 8 to introduce ARM; First Public Demonstration Expected This Week

#30

Post by ippisl »

6ren wrote: post #28

The problem Microsoft faces is that the primary selling point of Windows is the third-party software... which won't run on ARM. Solutions: all providers recompile for ARM (unmanageable). W8 emulates x86 (slow). W8 does very tricky JIT recompilation of x86 to ARM, as if it were a VM (amazing). Launching .Net a few years back means that at least all software written for that is trivially retargeted. A clever (or serend…

Moore's law probably gives them enough speed to use x86 for very old software , .net gives them good results for new software .
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