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Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

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Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#391

Post by tomatocracy »

salawat wrote: post #320
tomatocracy wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The previous strongmen regimes were rather better for foreign investors than the current regimes and foreign investors would probably rather have seen stable governments gradually improving rights for foreign investors (certainly as an investor in one of those countries at the time through my work, from a purely business perspective I would have preferred a more peaceful path towards democracy). I don't think foreign…

There's something absolutely twisted about your argument's implicit acceptance of a state that runs roughshod over its own populace, but treats foreign investors with the Velvet glove while turning a profit through the meat grinder. If you can't see the good of the balance sheet shouldn't always justify the enablement of despotism... Well... I'm probably not going to make any convincing argument that'll make it past…

I think you misunderstood what I was saying - it wasn’t that I supported the strongmen regimes per se (or even that I think foreign investors as a group did) but that I was skeptical of the idea that the revolutions happened because ‘business’ wanted them. My view is that a smoother transition to democracy would have had most support from foreign investors. The revolutions were brutal for investors in those countries and more importantly for many of the people there.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#392

Post by joelx »

echaozh wrote: post #383
hjanssen wrote: post #16

This is really bad and definitely triggers memorys of the Tiananmen massacre. I'm very interested how the rest of the world is going to react to these developments considering the position of China only got stronger since the Tinanmen situation. I recognized that the reaction of e.g. Germany was considerably weaker to the HK protests than e.g. the Arab Spring protests, but I guess we just have to wait and see. Edit:…

I think some people in HK are deliberately trying to force the Mainland government to bring in the tanks. Otherwise why would they start beating up Mainlander travelers?

This appears to be a Chinese totalitarian state shill account.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#393

Post by joelx »

wbl wrote: post #255
empath75 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don’t think that China will do anything like that again. Because of how their economy is so intertwined with the rest of the world, they can’t afford another brutal crackdown. I am sure they will go in, but I’m also sure they have more sophisticated crowd control methods available to them.

Remember Prince Bonesaw? Saudi Arabia is a laughingstock of a country that can't do anything for itself, and yet we didn't do anything about them murdering a reporter with a green card.

Nations that are free today will not be free tomorrow. People today have been too afraid to stand up to dictators, and dictators are encroaching everywhere.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#394

Post by tombh »

simonh wrote: post #363
tombh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then who does have responsibility? Surely you're not suggesting that all is forgiven and forgotten once the perpetrators are dead? I'm suggesting that, figuratively, if you actually knew that you lived by a volcano, the emotional shock caused by its eruption could be tempered by some foresight. The Opium Trade and Wars were evil and at a massive scale, I just don't see how that can be spun any other way. How was this…

Responsibility for what? Either the people of Hong Kong are entitled to their opinions and freedoms, or they are not. I don't see why the actions of some dead British guys from 150 years ago have anything to do with whether that it true or not? Nobody is spinning the opium wars in any way. You are the one who brought up the topic.

Responsibility for justice. Perhaps legally nothing will ever happen, but without moral justice, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". The opinions and freedoms of the Chinese in 1842 were the same as Hong Kong's are now: to remain as they were and not become part of a different nation. So if you believe that Hong Kong deserves independence now, then you need to also believe that it deserved remaining Chinese then.

I'm not an apologist for China. For example I strongly believe in the independence of Taiwan, they've clearly demonstrated through their own efforts that they are different to the mainland. They didn't have that sentiment force upon them by guns from a foreign military might.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#395

Post by malms »

tombh wrote: post #394
simonh wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responsibility for what? Either the people of Hong Kong are entitled to their opinions and freedoms, or they are not. I don't see why the actions of some dead British guys from 150 years ago have anything to do with whether that it true or not? Nobody is spinning the opium wars in any way. You are the one who brought up the topic.

Responsibility for justice. Perhaps legally nothing will ever happen, but without moral justice, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". The opinions and freedoms of the Chinese in 1842 were the same as Hong Kong's are now: to remain as they were and not become part of a different nation. So if you believe that Hong Kong deserves independence now, then you need to also believe that it deserve…

> Responsibility for justice.

That's one of the most stupid politically correct ideas of the modern times. Thinking descendants of perpetrators owe anything to descendant of victim fails to account that, in most cases, the victims would actually have done the same than th eperpetrators had they be in the similar position of power (see slavery / natives vs europeans). It's bullshit. It's human nature that people abuse people. It's never a race/ people / specific group issue.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#396

Post by peterbraden »

markus_zhang wrote: post #103
dep_b wrote: post #81

As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from things happening all over China at a given point.

The history of HK is essentially the rule of the central government (UK or China) and the local overlords (The few families and their lackeys the triads). HK's prosperity was largely the result of Cold War and I'm afraid that is gone forever (unless of course the world goes on that route again).

It's still a critical piece of the financial gateway into China.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#397

Post by redblacktree »

echaozh wrote: post #378
mr_overalls wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Chinese people do not see risking growth disruption as worth what the west considers freedom. Yes, in the face of a dystopian surveillance apparatus and a Party that will not hesitate to commit mass murder to maintain power, Chinese citizens are understandably reticent to publicly ask for _anything_ besides basic subsistence and stability.

How arrogant.

This is a low-value comment. If you feel the person you replied to is being arrogant, please explain why you feel that way. If you can't do that, please refrain from posting.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#398

Post by nabla9 »

azernik wrote: post #389
nabla9 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As life conditions improve, the change is inevitable. Not liberal democracy, but some radical change. Chinese middle class may not demand democracy but they are clearly unhappy with the judiciary. Some kinds of checks and balances and independent juridical system is where it may start. Maybe we should look how some European monarchies gradually transformed over centuries.

The goal of the Chinese leadership seems to be Singapore - a rich, rules-driven, low-corruption dictatorship. That would satisfy at least some of the demands of the Chinese public.

Singapore has working legal system. Chinese are eroding that in HK.

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#399

Post by [deleted] »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #376
shadowprofile77 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what makes you state this about the west? Citation or more detailed reason would be nice.

Trump isn't the best advertisement for how well democracy works. Neither is Boris Johnson. (In fact, Trump v Clinton as a choice for leader... shudder.) The alt-right and antifa battling it out in the streets isn't a great look for democracy and the rule of law, either. Epstein may have been the world's most successful pimp and blackmailer, and thrived for years among our elite. That's not a great look, either. Then…

[deleted]

Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong

#400

Post by thefringthing »

echaozh wrote: post #383
hjanssen wrote: post #16

This is really bad and definitely triggers memorys of the Tiananmen massacre. I'm very interested how the rest of the world is going to react to these developments considering the position of China only got stronger since the Tinanmen situation. I recognized that the reaction of e.g. Germany was considerably weaker to the HK protests than e.g. the Arab Spring protests, but I guess we just have to wait and see. Edit:…

I think some people in HK are deliberately trying to force the Mainland government to bring in the tanks. Otherwise why would they start beating up Mainlander travelers?

Heads up: This user seems to be a mainlander, the vast majority of whose comments are defending the Chinese government on various issues. (Hong Kong, Falun Dafa, the Social Credit System, etc.)
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