FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights • Hacker News Board

Re: FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights

#121

Post by userbinator » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 3:17 AM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #116

AlexDragusin wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I've seen them and it's driven by the misguided quest for the thinnest, form over function devices while refusing to accept that battery technology is not yet up to the task. Particularly when you consider the volatile Lithium based tech which is sensitive to heat, let's put them in enclosed cases where lots of heat is generated, make them non removable, what could go wrong. Here I just put something rough togeth…

Except, as already noted, batteries in current Macbooks are not one rectangular slab like that. Take a look at the inside of the current Macbook Pro: https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg That's a "battery" that's actually six separate batteries, fit around and underneath the structural components of the touchpad. Make it a single piece that can be neatly removed like your would-be concept image and you cut battery life in…

Besides that one pesky ribbon cable that could probably be rerouted under the battery pack easily, I see nothing else that prevents a removable battery containing multiple cells, which need not be rectangular overall.

Re: FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights

#122

Post by userbinator » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 3:22 AM UTC

dap wrote: post #59

> While there have been repeated incidents of phones, laptops and other devices overheating and catching fire in passenger compartments of planes, it hasn’t ever caused a fire to spread. The flames can be extinguished with water and flight attendants are trained how to address it. I was under the impression that water was the wrong thing to put on a Li-Ion battery fire. Is that right?

Water is perfectly fine. It's cheap, nonflammable, and has a very high heat capacity.

Lithium ion batteries have no metallic lithium, which is what can react with water.

Re: FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights

#123

Post by bumblebeard » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 3:26 AM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #47

tyingq wrote: post #9

The TSA will clearly have issues managing this. All MacBooks look the same to them. They can't currently manage basic stuff like "baby formula might need different rules than our 3oz standard for liquids." Expect pressure on Apple to make it a non-issue.

I actually took an 10 inch screwdriver on to a flight accidently. When I was unpacking at the hotel I was like "how the F did this get past the security check?" Another time I was running late for my flight and forgot to empty my 16oz water bottle. After my bag went through the scanner I realized my mistake and told the TSA agent about it. He uncapped the bottle, swirrled the water around, sniffed it, and then handed…

I left a water bottle in my bag at SJC once. The TSA agent pulled me aside after I went through the scanner and pointed to it on the X-Ray to ask me what it was. I said something like "oh, oops, looks like I forgot my water bottle in there" and she asked me to take it out of the bag. She took a quick look at it and then just let me on the plane without making me dump it out or even opening the bottle.

I guess that means they at least looked at the X-Ray; it seems like a lot of the time they don't even bother to do that.

Re: FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights

#124

Post by nixpulvis » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 3:32 AM UTC

dahart wrote: post #115

coin wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for this?

Sure. Google “tsa” and click “what can I bring?”, it goes right to the descriptions which cite the FAA regulations. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/...

I clicked your link, and ctrl-f'd "FAA", it only cites the FAA for "Alcoholic beverages" and "Alcoholic beverages over 140 proof", "Car Parts", ...

I gave up at this point thanks to an error:

    An AJAX HTTP error occurred.
    HTTP Result Code: 503
    StatusText: Service Unavailable

Finally I searched for "Laptops" which doesn't mention the FAA at all.

"Laptops

Carry On Bags: Yes

Checked Bags: Yes

Please remove the laptops from your bag and place it in a separate bin for X-ray screening.

TSA Pre® travelers do not need to remove shoes, laptops, 3-1-1 liquids, belts or light jackets. Please see TSA Pre® for more information."

Re: FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights

#125

Post by AdamJacobMuller » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 3:38 AM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #116

AlexDragusin wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I've seen them and it's driven by the misguided quest for the thinnest, form over function devices while refusing to accept that battery technology is not yet up to the task. Particularly when you consider the volatile Lithium based tech which is sensitive to heat, let's put them in enclosed cases where lots of heat is generated, make them non removable, what could go wrong. Here I just put something rough togeth…

Except, as already noted, batteries in current Macbooks are not one rectangular slab like that. Take a look at the inside of the current Macbook Pro: https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg That's a "battery" that's actually six separate batteries, fit around and underneath the structural components of the touchpad. Make it a single piece that can be neatly removed like your would-be concept image and you cut battery life in…

In addition to the shape, which itself would need to be compromised by a removable battery, there is the issue of the casing.

Any battery requires a certain amount of puncture resistance. When a battery is embedded into a device and irremovable, the casing of the device itself counts as part of that puncture resistance. If the battery is removable, the battery module itself must be puncture resistant and you're wasting significant internal volume with hard casing around the removable battery module which does not need to exist.

Re: FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights

#126

Post by dahart » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 3:54 AM UTC

nixpulvis wrote: post #124

dahart wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Google “tsa” and click “what can I bring?”, it goes right to the descriptions which cite the FAA regulations. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/...

I clicked your link, and ctrl-f'd "FAA", it only cites the FAA for "Alcoholic beverages" and "Alcoholic beverages over 140 proof", "Car Parts", ... I gave up at this point thanks to an error: An AJAX HTTP error occurred. HTTP Result Code: 503 StatusText: Service Unavailable Finally I searched for "Laptops" which doesn't mention the FAA at all. "Laptops Carry On Bags: Yes Checked Bags: Yes Please remove the laptops fr…

> it only cites the FAA for ...

The link above goes to a partial list. Click on “A-Z list” on the right side to see everything in one page, and then CTRL+F “faa” and you’ll see 17 matches.

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/...

> Finally I searched for “Laptops” which doesn’t mention the FAA at all.

Right, I see the same thing under laptop, but you might take a look at “Power Banks” and “Power Charger” and “Phone Charger” which all mention lithium ion batteries and reference FAA web pages -- however the link seems to be broken.

Re: FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights

#127

Post by jandrese » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 4:00 AM UTC

BigJono wrote: post #119

coin wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a ban on fake laptop? Why does the TSA care if they are real?

Presumably if there's a working computer inside the case then it can't be packed to the brim with c4?

Yeah, someone would have to leave a Raspberry Pi zero sized chunk of explosive out to put up a boot screen and something close enough to a windows boot logo to pass a cursory visual inspection.

In reality, the X-Ray should already make it pretty clear if there is something weird about the laptop's build. Turning on the machine is entirely unnecessary. Also, I have not been asked to turn on a laptop in many years, so unless this is a new development it is badly out of date.

Re: FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights

#128

Post by AlexDragusin » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 4:02 AM UTC

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #125

crooked-v wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, as already noted, batteries in current Macbooks are not one rectangular slab like that. Take a look at the inside of the current Macbook Pro: https://i.imgur.com/pTZjbuZ.jpg That's a "battery" that's actually six separate batteries, fit around and underneath the structural components of the touchpad. Make it a single piece that can be neatly removed like your would-be concept image and you cut battery life in…

In addition to the shape, which itself would need to be compromised by a removable battery, there is the issue of the casing. Any battery requires a certain amount of puncture resistance. When a battery is embedded into a device and irremovable, the casing of the device itself counts as part of that puncture resistance. If the battery is removable, the battery module itself must be puncture resistant and you're wasti…

Just a matter of engineering which we are well capable of solving, as long as batteries are clearly labeled as consumable items [1] they should be user replaceable which given the limitations of current battery technology, would also reduce the friction, inconveniences and dangers presented in this particular case.

Personally, I am not against thin devices and non removable batteries, it should be done in tandem as the technology will be aligned with this approach without compromising the user experience and ability to replace consumable components.

[1] https://www.apple.com/support/macbookair/en/battery_body.htm...

Re: FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights

#129

Post by jandrese » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 4:02 AM UTC

AsParallel wrote: post #102

jdavis703 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually took an 10 inch screwdriver on to a flight accidently. When I was unpacking at the hotel I was like "how the F did this get past the security check?" Another time I was running late for my flight and forgot to empty my 16oz water bottle. After my bag went through the scanner I realized my mistake and told the TSA agent about it. He uncapped the bottle, swirrled the water around, sniffed it, and then handed…

For real. I saw a woman go through security at seatac with a frozen 1.5L bottle. They seem very willing to let the system be gamed.

Technically ice is not a liquid, so she was within the letter of the law.

Re: FAA Bans Recalled Apple Laptops from Flights

#130

Post by wyclif » Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 4:09 AM UTC

mruts wrote: post #75

mason55 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in the same boat. And also in the middle of a business trip with my laptop. Hopefully I don’t have any problems on the way home because I have no idea what I will do.

No one actually cares. Weed is also banned on planes, TSA agents have found some of mine on my carry on a couple times, and no one bats an eye.

Doesn't that depend on what states you're leaving and entering? I can't imagine TSA agents in a state where it's not yet legalized would look the other way.