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Interest Rates: Naturally Negative?

blog.pimco.com

41–50 of 147 posts

Re: Interest Rates: Naturally Negative?

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also cash can be made illegal.

Technically but likely not functionally.

True, but they can always impose greater restrictions such as how much you can spend with cash. Cash transaction limits have been decreasing for some time.

https://wolfstreet.com/2017/01/28/europe-limits-on-cash-tran...

Re: Interest Rates: Naturally Negative?

#42
The market must simply be anticipating interest rates going even deeper negative, especially in the EU, where there's a huge amount of sovereign debt, collateralized across different countries.

The "natural" demand is there in the form of reserve requirements by European banks. This is limited by the amount of cash that banks can store at cost, but that practice can restricted or eliminated:

https://www.imf.org/~/media/Files/Publications/WP/2018/wp181...

Re: Interest Rates: Naturally Negative?

#43
post #31

I understand why you would want to set interest rates negative if your central bank is going to buy up all that debt, but as an individual or institutional investor why would you ever want to hold something with negative interest instead of cash? Why is there even a market for a bond with negative interest rates at all, since compared to a $X bond with negative interest, $X in currency seemingly carries less risk, mo…

When you deposit your money at the bank, the bank pays you an interest rate. Normally that rate is positive. They pay you that interest rate because they are investing your money somewhere (often in mortgages, which pay them an interest rate). However, sometimes they have more money than their investment prospects can handle. Normally under those circumstances, they would buy treasuries from the federal reserve, whic…

This is fascinating news to me! Could you elaborate on how (legislatively) the banks are required to keep their reserves with the Fed? What would be a good source to read more?

How does what you said mesh with the notion that keeping cash might be riskier / more cumbersome than investing in the "risk-free" treasury bonds?

Re: Interest Rates: Naturally Negative?

#44
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes no sense for an individual, since you can keep your money in an FDIC insured account and earn a positive interest rate. Institutions don't have that luxury - the government doesn't insure large amounts of cash. If they keep it in a bank and the bank goes under, they lose their money. So they keep their money in national governments, which are far safer than banks.

> Institutions don't have that luxury - the government doesn't insure large amounts of cash. If they keep it in a bank and the bank goes under, they lose their money. So they keep their money in national governments, which are far safer than banks. Due to the low interest rates German insurance companies are already considering to store cash in their own vaults instead of buying bonds: https://translate.google.com/tr…

My guess is that these analyses by insurance companies don't properly take into account the risk of theft. All that cash in a bunker makes a very appealing target for thieves, both insiders and outsiders. Also, if it starts happening with any frequency, the central banks will just forbid hording of cash (e.g., by refusing to allow member banks to provide the cash if it exceeds a certain amount).

Re: Interest Rates: Naturally Negative?

#45
My understanding is that interest rates were cut originally in order to provide a "safe landing" instead of a "sharp drop" after the last economic crisis (and that they were left low since then). If interest rates are imposed externally by Central Banks instead of by a free market, how do we know what the natural rate would be? Do Central Banks attempt to adjust interest rates towards the natural rate or is it in some sense completely arbitrary/detached?

Re: Interest Rates: Naturally Negative?

#47

Negative interest on wealth is the historic norm for people who have a lot of it. Think storage costs for gold, guards (and maintenance) for your palace, or your yacht - not to mention the crazy depreciation. For the ultra rich, 50 basis points of holding costs would arguably be a bargain. Even normally wealthy people don't hesitate to pay 200 basis points for their wealth to be managed in, for instance, mutual funds…

Except when you're giving out a loan you're not asking the debtor to "store the wealth", you're asking them to pay you back the principal plus interest when the loan matures.

The debtor is free to do as they wish with your money in the meantime. The debtor is also "free" to default and not give you back anything. The interest rate is supposed to reflect that risk.

In the case of a government bond, you either have the risk of sovereign default, or the risk of currency devaluation to pay back otherwise unservicable debt.

The idea that already heavily indebted governments will be "storing your wealth" is completely naive. They'll be playing this game until suddenly they can't hide the massive inflation anymore, then they'll have to hike interest rates to double digits to get it back under control. This literally just happened in Turkey last year, but it also happened in the US in the seventies.

Re: Interest Rates: Naturally Negative?

#48
The article presented and dismissed a valid alternative in the same breath:

"average net monthly payroll gains have now slowed [and] aggregate hours worked for production and non-supervisory workers are now contracting..., something that usually doesn’t happen outside of a recession."

We could instead be entering a recession. They tend to happen about every 10 years, and we're a tad overdue for one now.

Re: Interest Rates: Naturally Negative?

#49

My understanding is that interest rates were cut originally in order to provide a "safe landing" instead of a "sharp drop" after the last economic crisis (and that they were left low since then). If interest rates are imposed externally by Central Banks instead of by a free market, how do we know what the natural rate would be? Do Central Banks attempt to adjust interest rates towards the natural rate or is it in som…

The natural rate would be fluctuating due to time preference and expected risk, but even if the natural rate was low, it wouldn't be zero. That's absurd.

Central banks attempt to adjust interest rates to keep inflation at a target rate, which is a balancing act between maintaining a stable currency and stimulating (or resuscitating) an economy.

Re: Interest Rates: Naturally Negative?

#50

Negative interest on wealth is the historic norm for people who have a lot of it. Think storage costs for gold, guards (and maintenance) for your palace, or your yacht - not to mention the crazy depreciation. For the ultra rich, 50 basis points of holding costs would arguably be a bargain. Even normally wealthy people don't hesitate to pay 200 basis points for their wealth to be managed in, for instance, mutual funds…

Except when you're giving out a loan you're not asking the debtor to "store the wealth", you're asking them to pay you back the principal plus interest when the loan matures. The debtor is free to do as they wish with your money in the meantime. The debtor is also "free" to default and not give you back anything. The interest rate is supposed to reflect that risk. In the case of a government bond, you either have the…

I agree. The difference is that at large levels of wealth, levels beyond what most of us can realistically imagine happening, then storage becomes an issue.

No regular person is going to buy a bond with a negative interest rate. Just hold cash. But once you start to have large amounts of cash, different considerations enter the picture. How do you store it? Security guards. Guards to watch the security guards. Too much cash is hard to spend, so you want it in electronic form.

The market is now saying that for certain types of cash in electronic form, the risk adjusted fee for creating the electronic record and holding it for you is greater than the interest they will pay you for the money.

In that way, the net interest rate including all factors such as the risk of default, ends up negative.

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