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GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

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Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#241

Post by morbm »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #119
aaomidi wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soon you'll be able to. Range anxiety goes away with time and planning. Fast DC chargers are going to be everywhere in the near future. They're already on every major highway except i94.

No offense, but deep in the mountains or out in rural northern Ontario, etc. where I'd like to go... will be the last place that DC fast chargers will go. I'm a big fan of the EV movement, I'll own a BEV someday, but I feel that GM and EV-boosters in general have thrown the Volt-type range extended EVs under the bus. It is an amazing technical achievement and with the right marketing and product development could tak…

Honda Clarity PHEV is essentially the successor to the discontinued Volt (if you can get past the looks!)

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#242

Post by xeromal »

core-questions wrote: post #157
xeromal wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point in history, there was only one gas station in the world. It takes time to build infrastructure. People like you seem to miss that. My Tesla can go 300 miles and charge most of that in about 15 minutes. Plug it in, walk into the gas station to take a piss and buy a snack and walk out. Done. I did that a month ago when I drove to vegas. It's not perfect, but it's incredible. There's a second thing that mo…

> People like you seem to miss that. Unnecessarily rude, and clearly untrue considering the poster displayed an excellent understanding of the logistics of the situation. I don't think he or anyone else is opposed to the infrastructure catching up, but he's alive and working today and needs solutions that work right now.

Yeah, it was a bit rude. Thanks for calling me out. It's just annoying to hear the same complaints over and over when things are improving so much. 10 years ago what we have now was futuristic and a joke.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#243

Post by throw0101a »

steelframe wrote: post #207
throw0101a wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That won't work for a few reasons: first, it's a one-way street, and parking is on the side that they are not on. Second, having a cord across the sidewalk is a tripping hazard and illegal: * https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/09/01/toronto-electric... * https://archive.is/29o0a (in case) Third: street parking is common, so even if the above two items were not a problem, there is no guarantee that there would be a…

Yeah, sounds like they're just about maximally impeded from charging at their home. They'd have to hit a rapid charging station once or twice a week. If they work, then charging at work can be a thing, which is what I do. But for the record, I was suggesting installing the charge port at the curb, if at all possible. Cords across sidewalks aren't just a tripping hazard. If they come loose, they can make life difficul…

> But for the record, I was suggesting installing the charge port at the curb, if at all possible.

Typical sidewalk in older parts of the city (use Street View):

* https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Westminster+Ave,+Toront...

Even if one lived on the "parking-side" of such a street (which my parents do not), there's no way installing a charge point without messing up the sidewalk. And there's no way people would agree to messing up the clear sidewalks we have on the residential streets. The busier commercial streets are another matter; around the corner in the same neighbourhood:

* https://www.google.com/maps/place/385+Roncesvalles+Ave,+Toro...

> There's no reason they couldn't spring for a PHEV though and opportunistically charge where they can while out shopping or whatever. Every little bit helps.

Yes, but the originating article was about the elimination of hybrids by GM and VW: this is a non-starter for some folks.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#244

Post by woodandsteel »

clouddrover wrote: post #225
woodandsteel wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>EVs lose out here because of battery degradation. You're absolutely correct. That's why every Tesla with over 100,00 miles on it has been sent to the junkyard because it no longer takes a charge. Oh, and one consequence of rapidly falling battery prices is that if at some point your battery capacity eventually does get too low, you can buy a replacement at a small fraction of what the original cost.

> you can buy a replacement at a small fraction of what the original cost. For how much? If your future cheap battery costs $100 per kilowatt hour at the pack level, you're spending $8,000 for an 80 kilowatt hour battery. That's a large small fraction.

Ten years from now it will probably be more like 25$ per kilowatt hour. And don't forget that any capacity the old pack has means it can be sold for grid storage. But even if it is higher, you still will have saved a lot more in total operating cost.

An that is the basic point the OP was making. EV's are already a better deal, it's just that they are new and so most people don't realize it.

And one more point. Once the swing to EV's starts to happen in a few years, then the resale value of ICE's is going to plummet, and you would lose a lot more that way if you bought one than you would pay for a replacement battery.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#245

Post by clouddrover »

woodandsteel wrote: post #244
clouddrover wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can buy a replacement at a small fraction of what the original cost. For how much? If your future cheap battery costs $100 per kilowatt hour at the pack level, you're spending $8,000 for an 80 kilowatt hour battery. That's a large small fraction.

Ten years from now it will probably be more like 25$ per kilowatt hour. And don't forget that any capacity the old pack has means it can be sold for grid storage. But even if it is higher, you still will have saved a lot more in total operating cost. An that is the basic point the OP was making. EV's are already a better deal, it's just that they are new and so most people don't realize it. And one more point. Once t…

> Ten years from now it will probably be more like 25$ per kilowatt hour.

You've fallen victim to wishful thinking. Show me even one projection at that price point.

> then the resale value of ICE's is going to plummet

Which makes it a buyer's market which is even more reason to buy a secondhand ICE vehicle over a secondhand EV.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#246

Post by woodandsteel »

clouddrover wrote: post #245
woodandsteel wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ten years from now it will probably be more like 25$ per kilowatt hour. And don't forget that any capacity the old pack has means it can be sold for grid storage. But even if it is higher, you still will have saved a lot more in total operating cost. An that is the basic point the OP was making. EV's are already a better deal, it's just that they are new and so most people don't realize it. And one more point. Once t…

> Ten years from now it will probably be more like 25$ per kilowatt hour. You've fallen victim to wishful thinking. Show me even one projection at that price point. > then the resale value of ICE's is going to plummet Which makes it a buyer's market which is even more reason to buy a secondhand ICE vehicle over a secondhand EV.

>You've fallen victim to wishful thinking. Show me even one projection at that price point.

Battery prices have been falling rapidly. They went down 35% in the last year alone. This is partly due to improved technology and partly to increasing economies of scale. Those two trends are predicted to continue.

>Which makes it a buyer's market which is even more reason to buy a secondhand ICE vehicle over a secondhand EV.

The problem is that if ICE resale prices drop, then the effective price of buying an ICE new goes up, which steer people toward buying an EV instead. EV prices are predicted to reach sticker price parity with ICE's around 2024. And their total lifetime ownership costs are already lower. When that happens then ICE sales are going to drop rapidly and be replaced by ICE's.

Remember, the original article is about GM and VW giving up on hybrids and switching to battery EV's. They are doing this because they are aware of what is going to happen and realize they will go bankrupt if they don't switch as fast as possible (and they make their money selling new cars, so people buying used ICE's is not going to save them).

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#247

Post by clouddrover »

woodandsteel wrote: post #246
clouddrover wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ten years from now it will probably be more like 25$ per kilowatt hour. You've fallen victim to wishful thinking. Show me even one projection at that price point. > then the resale value of ICE's is going to plummet Which makes it a buyer's market which is even more reason to buy a secondhand ICE vehicle over a secondhand EV.

>You've fallen victim to wishful thinking. Show me even one projection at that price point. Battery prices have been falling rapidly. They went down 35% in the last year alone. This is partly due to improved technology and partly to increasing economies of scale. Those two trends are predicted to continue. >Which makes it a buyer's market which is even more reason to buy a secondhand ICE vehicle over a secondhand EV.…

> Battery prices have been falling rapidly.

Show me a single projection that claims $25 a kwh at the pack level in 10 years.

Re: GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye to Hybrid Vehicles

#248

Post by evo_9 »

maxsilver wrote: post #206
evo_9 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buy a BMW i3 used; they go for sub-20k. I live in Colorado and it’s fine all year round. If you need to drive more than 120 miles in a day then yes this is still impractical, otherwise it’s the best bargain in EV land and a fun car to jet around town in.

> it’s fine all year round. How does it do on potholes? And on ice? I really wanted to love the i3, but the bicycle tires looked liked they'd be fundamentally unsafe on the ice or on any unmaintained (pothole-filled) road.

A bit late but hopefully helpful. I find it to be very unstable on snow/ice, and I grew up in Michigan driving in much worse than Colorado typically gets. The caveat is that you buy real winter tiles (x-ice, Blizzak,etc) and it's pretty rock solid.

I agree the bicycle tires are terrible looking. I actually just bought a 2017 today for 22k and the salesmen mentioned one of the mechanics has an i3 and has tricked his out, including bigger rims/tires. I'm going to reach out and do the same now that I own one (had been leasing a 2017).

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