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Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future

npr.org

31–40 of 123 posts

Re: Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future

#31

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -- and I wouldn't count these small studies as extraordinary. Unfortunatley, publishing these kind of claims prematurely help the more gullible among us to fall for ridiculous claims from psychics and others who would take advantage of them. (The authors of "The Secret", I'm looking at you.) Commenters on NPR's website (not exactly the dumbest audience online) hav…

Unfortunatley, publishing these kind of claims prematurely help the more gullible among us to fall for ridiculous claims from psychics and others who would take advantage of them.

True. But on the other hand, publishing ridiculous claims and incorrect results is a necessary part of science.

When we publish only results we know to be correct, because they agree with mainstream beliefs, we introduce a bias into the scientific process. In reality, if you publish 20 experiments with p=0.05 [1], 1 of them should be incorrect. If less than 1 in 20 of your papers isn't wrong (assuming p=0.05 is the gold standard), you are not doing science.

You can see a perfect illustration of this when people tried to reproduce Millikan's oil drop experiment. I'll quote Feynman: Millikan measured the charge on an electron...got an answer which we now know not to be quite right...It's interesting to look at the history of measurements of the charge of an electron, after Millikan. If you plot them as a function of time, you find that one is a little bit bigger than Millikan's, and the next one's a little bit bigger than that, and the next one's a little bit bigger than that, until finally they settle down to a number which is higher.

Why didn't they discover the new number was higher right away? It's a thing that scientists are ashamed of - this history - because it's apparent that people did things like this: When they got a number that was too high above Millikan's, they thought something must be wrong - and they would look for and find a reason why something might be wrong. When they got a number close to Millikan's value they didn't look so hard. And so they eliminated the numbers that were too far off, and did other things like that...

This is why I'm an advocate of accepting/rejecting scientific papers based solely on methodology, with referees being given no information about the conclusions and with authors being forbidden from post-hoc tweaks. You do your experiment, and if you disagree with Millikan/conclude that ESP exists, so be it. Everyone is allowed to be wrong 5% of the time.

[1] I'm wearing my frequentist hat for the purposes of this post. Even if you are a Bayesian, you should still publish, however.

Re: Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future

#32
post #4

See http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Wag... ("Why Psychologists Must Change the Way They Analyze Their Data: The Case of Psi".) It demolishes the study referred to in the npr article.

Just reading it now -- seems like a very thorough takedown of the whole thing, in fairly non-technical language. It makes the very good point that this paper makes lots of statistical tests, and then bases big claims on the small minority that showed a significant effect. This is in no way restricted to psychology, drugs companies for example do this all the time. It's cheating, whether you realize it or not. Statist…

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Re: Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future

#33
This is trivial software to write. Why does someone not quickly whip up a web app that does the picture thing as described in the experiment, then we can personally test if we have ESP senses or not?

Specs: Two buttons - ESP mode or non-ESP mode. In non-ESP mode, 60 random pictures are shown and we are to guess. Then it gives the correct one. In ESP mode, add some porn. If the results are different, then we have ESP. Use Javascript for the randomisation algorithm so that we can be sure there is no server trickery being done.

Re: Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future

#34
post #23

My bet is a crappy pseudo-random number generator, or other software bug.

A valid point. As scientists rely more on the tools created by others, how can they be certain they're measuring the subjects and not the tools themselves. The article repeatedly refers to "a computer" in these experiments as if it's some divine arbiter, I think most programmers here know differently.

Re: Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future

#36
post #14

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The classic 5% (or even 0.1%) statistical threshold is sometimes not enough. See here for an easy-to-understand example of why that is the case: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/12/13/101213fa_fact_... In other news, capital punishment has been installed for science journalists publishing articles that contain a question in the title that can be succinctly a…

Can someone please, please explain this to me? I've never understood why the oft stated line "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is anything other than a clever saying. Why should it be that things that follow your intuition require any less rigor to prove than those that do not, and vice versa? Presumably there should be no subjectivity to cold hard science; evidence is evidence, and a certain quan…

There are some good replies to this already, but I'd like to add another, essentially of my own. As a professor friend of mine once explained, for some reason people seem to want to accept extraordinary explanations over ordinary ones (just look at many commonly held unfounded beliefs). This might be some innate primordial mechanism of the human brain. I don't know, but if there is any truth to it then we must carefully guard against our own bias to make sure we are not unwittingly seeing the results we want to see, hence the need for extraordinary evidence to back up extraordinary claims.

Re: Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future

#37

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -- and I wouldn't count these small studies as extraordinary. Unfortunatley, publishing these kind of claims prematurely help the more gullible among us to fall for ridiculous claims from psychics and others who would take advantage of them. (The authors of "The Secret", I'm looking at you.) Commenters on NPR's website (not exactly the dumbest audience online) hav…

Unfortunatley, publishing these kind of claims prematurely help the more gullible among us to fall for ridiculous claims from psychics and others who would take advantage of them. True. But on the other hand, publishing ridiculous claims and incorrect results is a necessary part of science. When we publish only results we know to be correct, because they agree with mainstream beliefs, we introduce a bias into the sci…

[deleted]

Re: Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future

#38

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -- and I wouldn't count these small studies as extraordinary. Unfortunatley, publishing these kind of claims prematurely help the more gullible among us to fall for ridiculous claims from psychics and others who would take advantage of them. (The authors of "The Secret", I'm looking at you.) Commenters on NPR's website (not exactly the dumbest audience online) hav…

> All of you criticizing this need to open up your minds This type of attitude is infuriating - if a claim can survive the crucible of peer review then it we can be much, much more certain that it is true and correct. If humans were to posses a limited form of precognition that would be awesome - but before we can claim to posses a thing we must be sure that it is real .

As a fellow skeptic, I would advise we avoid outright rejection. After all, part of the mantra is to question our own world view, right?

Disease existed long before we figured out causes and targeted treatments; people possessed it, and people applied treatments with varying degrees of success and failure, including death. One of the more interesting inaccuracies of medical history is that of humors (random site - http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/herbs/WomenMed.html). How we treated disease changed over time and is still changing as we learn new things.

My point? It is important to continue to apply rigid scientific study to all manners of phenomena, not only to validate its existence but also to figure out how to repeat or avoid said phenomena, depending on the need, the positives and the negatives of said phenomena. However, we should not turn a blind eye towards what people think they experience just because we have not yet come up with the right tool for measuring or the right study for identifying. There is always some reason behind the claim (even if the reason is "snake oil salesman").

Whatever is behind precognition (to take your example), people claim to experience it and always have made those claims. There is a certain burden of proof required, sure. How do you convince someone born deaf that there is a thing like sound that is experienced the way the hearing experience it? In the case of precognition, it tends to be self-validating (sometimes self-fulfilling), and yet it is still useful for precogs or those who believe in them, whether it is illusion or real, whether we have proven it concretely or not.

That bears a quick repeat... The information is somehow useful. These people who are shouting "open your mind" find their precognitive information useful; in their minds, challenges to this useful information are silly. In the name of understanding, the real focus should be on figuring out how that information is obtained. Is it psychic phenomena, a ghost whispering in the ear, great subconscious brain processing, or something else?

So if the response to an outright simple rejection is "open your minds", I think it is warranted. If the response is to indicate disagreement, however, I always thought that to be a useless response, as useless as the simple rejection.

Re: Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future

#39
post #4

See http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Wag... ("Why Psychologists Must Change the Way They Analyze Their Data: The Case of Psi".) It demolishes the study referred to in the npr article.

This counter-paper reads to me like spitefulness couched in scientific terms. Wagenmakers is, of course, on the very comfortable ground of defending the status quo from someone who is in all probability wrong.

But to be fair, we should take things on their merits. Contrasting the two papers, Bem's paper sticks very closely to the standard form and 'rules of engagement' (if you will) of published academic research. This counter paper on the other hand, has only the surface appearance of proper scientific method. For example, in making one if its main points it refers to a hypothetical casino where Bem could've made an 'infinite' amount of money, and to the one million dollar Randi prize, neither of which reach the standard of proper experimentalist scientific evidence. It does this by way of justification to one of their main points which is that because 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' we should be able to set the prior expectation of H1 - in their words 'for illustrative purposes' - to .00000000000000000001, which they then go on to demonstrate, makes the results non-significant.

But where does the 0.00000000000000000001 come from? It could, just as easily, be twice or half that figure. Thus not falsifiable and therefore not justifiable as an extra bit of arithmetic that Bem's paper must qualify.

To put this in terms this audience will understand, that's kind of like saying well no, because you are using Java and 'everybody knows' Java is slow I think we should multiply your benchmark figures by, oh, let's say, one half. And then we see that java throughput is quite poor, as expected. In fact, we should multiply all java benchmarks by some number like a half but I'm not going to be specific about it because actually its pretty much just an arbitrary number I made up. So, reading past the reference to Bayes and some nice formulas that's just arithmetic in my book.

Note, I'm not saying that there are no flaws in the Bem paper. Everybody can see that it's very likely they'll be something wrong with it (and the desk drawer problem to which the above paper also makes extensive evidence is a likely though not conclusive contender) but I think its only reasonable to hold up the criticism's to the same standard as what they are criticizing. Perhaps that way you'll be more likely to find the actual truth of the matter.

Re: Could It Be? Spooky Experiments That 'See' The Future

#40

This is trivial software to write. Why does someone not quickly whip up a web app that does the picture thing as described in the experiment, then we can personally test if we have ESP senses or not? Specs: Two buttons - ESP mode or non-ESP mode. In non-ESP mode, 60 random pictures are shown and we are to guess. Then it gives the correct one. In ESP mode, add some porn. If the results are different, then we have ESP.…

Javascript random is only pseudoalleatory. I think you need a true random number generator to truly test this.
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