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I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

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Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#21

Post by linkerzx »

imbored wrote: post #18
linkerzx wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is always some exception to the rule. Frankly the issue is more the number of topics one needs to learn to actually add value as a data-scientist. Junior data scientists need a hell lot of supervision compared to analysts or data-engineers. Most of what it takes to be a data-scientist is acquired on the job rather than something learned in class. And yes some of that could be checked during the interview, but t…

Junior anything needs a lot of supervision, it's probably the defining trait of a junior.

"Junior anything needs a lot of supervision, it's probably the defining trait of a junior." - yes, but I would argue that junior data-scientists requires much more supervision than the same person doing a junior analyst or engineer role.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#22

Post by kupaka »

It seems like what op is trying to say is that being a data scientist is a cross disciplinary position, so you can't really start off as a data scientist, rather you become one through other positions. However, their complaints feel more like either an inability or unwillingness to make the team a place for its members to grow. Ideally, members would be doing code review, so issues with ugly/inefficient code can be addressed and learned from. Getting up to speed on the organization's systems, which system to use situationally, general philosophical thinking behind what the data is, which problems to solve and how to solve them are definitely things that come out when a mid-level mentors a junior, which should be a thing that happens on the team, because it not only helps the juniors get up to speed, but it reinforces the mid-level member's knowledge. I think that speaks to real structural issues in how the team is set up, and if op's the head of a data team, I wouldn't want to work for him or for a company he works at in that capacity.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#23

Post by linkerzx »

imbored wrote: post #20
linkerzx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a job you grow into by not working at the job.: Agreed! There are quite a few paths which makes it easy to grow into, such as analyst or data/software engineer. There is however a mismatch of expectation that you can just start as a data-scientist out of school, which represent a steep learning curve and that people are usually not ready for.

Oh we disagree entirely. I am openly mocking the idea that you should learn the job by not doing it. That data scientists are just oh so special that no one can be a junior at it. It's ridiculous. If you can't mentor someone at the job, then that speaks to your failures. It's not the job that's the problem.

You can have junior position for everything, so long as you revise your expectations.

A lot of firm, rebrand analysts jobs to be junior data-scientists position to essentially attract candidates, so yeah you can be "junior" at it, but it's essentially a different job.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#24

Post by linkerzx »

kupaka wrote: post #22

It seems like what op is trying to say is that being a data scientist is a cross disciplinary position, so you can't really start off as a data scientist, rather you become one through other positions. However, their complaints feel more like either an inability or unwillingness to make the team a place for its members to grow. Ideally, members would be doing code review, so issues with ugly/inefficient code can be a…

There is no issue hiring juniors, they have a lot to learn and they should be coached through it for sure. That mid level, help coach juniors, is also not an issue. But I would rather hire a junior analyst or a junior engineer than a junior data-scientist. The breadth of what they need to learn before actually delivering value is quite vast.

I can hire an analyst or engineer and quickly they will be able to learn, get good at something and deliver value. After 2 years they can easily grow into a data-scientist with the good base they have had from their previous positions.

Some organization essentially rebrand analysts positions to "junior datascientist", but I believe this make it a mismatch of expectation for graduates getting out of school.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#28

Post by lunias »

imbored wrote: post #16
lunias wrote: post #9

Is this targeted at junior data scientists? Is the intent for them to know that their code is inefficient, unformatted, overly specific, weird ass, and wrong? I don't disagree that large amounts of people graduating from computer science programs are under-equipped to enter the workforce, but maybe focus on the shortcomings of the educational system than the people coming out of it.

It's not a shortcoming of the educational system. People need experience to be good at things. Engineers take years after school, doctors take years after school.

I agree that people need experience to become good at anything, but I actually see this as a sort of shortcoming which is attributable to education. i.e. the system will give you the building blocks of success without context and you can fumble around with them once you enter the workforce - learn on the job.

I believe that we should be focusing much more on pragmatic application of knowledge through apprenticeship in the later years of school.

The goal being to alleviate the feeling that you need to immediately train someone who just got done with 4+ years of training.

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