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The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

aeon.co

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Re: The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

#151
post #16

My interpretation of the point the author is trying to make: The 'hypersane' are those among us who have realized, for better or for worse, that the traditional things that most in a society strive for - material wealth, social status, conformity to social structures, etc. - aren't really the keys to happiness and that when you "awaken" (and become hypersane, I suppose) you realize that along with those things come s…

My thought is that it is a very lonely existence. I generally eschew most of society's social signalling. I drive only modest cars, I live alone in a sparsely furnished house (and love it!), try to eat right, keep a regular sleep schedule, try to act as rationally as possible, etc. I realize that after my bouts of "hyper sanity," that I have to then intentionally relax some of my standards and try to selectively buy…

Eschewing society's social signalling at sacrifice to personal wellbeing (ie. acknowleding we are social animals and thus thrive with a strong social net) is actually irrational behavior. By relaxing standards enough to maintain a strong social network you are behaving rationally IMO.

Re: The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would being completely aware of everything not allow one to function in a society if one wanted to? Does it imply that you can't selectively focus on things? Right now if I am to do the dishes, I am already aware of thousands other things and concepts and deep truths about reality, and sciences, etc. etc, but I can focus on this one task, it doesn't matter what I am aware of, if I choose to do it I can do it. How…

>Does it imply that you can't selectively focus on things? Yes - the ability to focus on one thing necessarily involves the ability to ignore lots of other things. One of the key traits of autism spectrum disorder is an inability to filter out irrelevant information. Constant awareness of everything is often functionally equivalent to a lack of awareness, because it degrades the signal-to-noise ratio of your percepti…

You are talking about autism. Autism is very commonly described as a disease or disorder, disability, etc. How do you compare it to "being most aware", and especially in the context of the term "sane"? It seems that the two are very differnet things that have little to do with each other. "Constant awareness" as you described it is surely not the kind of awareness that they meant when talking about "sanity"? Any regular normal healthy person, if they were being "constantly aware" of everything they already know and can perceive, even though that set of things is much smaller than the set of things available to a highly functioning autist, would already be too much to be able to function. In such a case it is then more of a disorder in focusing, not the question of how less or more aware you are?

Re: The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean I can reject my nature and stop breathing. That is until I pass out and start breathing automatically. I can reject my nature and stop eating and drinking but that has swift death associated with it. We can try and reject our nature but it seems eminently naive to me.

And yet somehow you can resist an urge to kill unknown weak stranger and taking their possession. (that's what our ancestor did, but somehow its not normal anymore).

What's your proof that this in in humanities nature? Not all actions we took during history are in humanities nature.

It seems more likely to me that humans were forced to do stuff like that due to other things in our nature like needing to eat and drink.

Re: The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question was whether they would be able to operate in a society. We did not discuss nor touch whether they suffer or not.

I would like to think that a hyper-rational would opt out of society in general. Not relying on the conventional ways of sustenance that we are accustomed to. One example of this is the survivalist, that lives in nature. One could start incrementally moving towards minimalism, acquiring the training and skills to farm and hurt animals and finally step outside of organized society. This is something I have been thinki…

> To what extent is technological progress and economic growth truly useful?

To me it is very useful and I truly believe that we live in the best possible time, even if you consider the people that have poorest lifestyle (and especially the number of people that are forced to live that lifestyle, which has decreased a lot).

Maybe you will think otherwise? Possibly, but before you decide, please go and actually do it first, live outside the society and not using any of the technology provided by it. It is very easy to discuss how easy it would be and how much saner you would be without the western developments when you don't have to worry about a small cut infecting your blood, dying from a plague, spending days constructing the simplest of tools, fending off bears or simply living through a year with very dry summer which destroyed your food supply.

Re: The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only now have realised it's "drunk" spelled backwards. And probably reads the same as "nerd"

the first time I read Terry Pratchett it was in italian, and knurd had not been translated, I suppose the translator didn't get the joke or thought it wasn't fun in italian. Took me a decade or so to finally get it when I re-encountered it in english :)

Since I'm sure I'm not the only one with the desire to look that up, "drunk/knurd" is apparently "ubriaco/ocairbu" in Italian.

Re: The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would being completely aware of everything not allow one to function in a society if one wanted to? Does it imply that you can't selectively focus on things? Right now if I am to do the dishes, I am already aware of thousands other things and concepts and deep truths about reality, and sciences, etc. etc, but I can focus on this one task, it doesn't matter what I am aware of, if I choose to do it I can do it. How…

> Why would being completely aware of everything not allow one to function in a society if one wanted to? > Does it imply that you can't selectively focus on things? This reminds me of Superman and General Zod in the "Man of Steel" film.

>This reminds me of Superman and General Zod in the "Man of Steel" film.

In that Zack Snyder was fundamentally incapable of focusing on one thing at a time, and decided to metaphorically barf up every half-baked idea simultaneously, making for an ungodly confusing incompetent mess of a film?

Re: The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

#157
post #149
post #107

This concept seems unhelpfully reductive and transparently targeted at people who feel a need for self-congratulation on account of being alienated by the "normal" people, although alienation is paradoxically also portrayed as one of the markers of being painfully ordinary. "Many ‘normal’ people suffer from not being hypersane: they have a restricted worldview, confused priorities, and are wracked by stress, anxiety…

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing but I feel like you should read some of the books mentioned above and ponder a little more because I feel like you missed something.

That's a very generic dismissal. Are you saying that I can't contribute to the discussion because I'm ill-informed or because I failed to grasp the significance of the concept? Could you be more specific about what it is that I'm missing?

Re: The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

#158
Hypersane sounds a little smug, but it feels close to something.

Like, there seems to be a difference between how smart a person is, and being [effective? rational? non-reactive? introspective?].

It feels like there's a spectrum of to which extent people are programmed by, and are reacting to, their environment. A spectrum that might be separate from how smart they are. Give them a text-book or an IQ-test and they'll do great, give them the news and they'll ineffectually berate and hate each-other, and so on.

So while a sane person might have a common social programming, an insane persons programming would be corrupted/deviant.

And a "hypersane" person would be someone who is more able to see their own (and others) programming, and to a greater extent be able to opt-out of some of it?

Maybe there are better words for it.

Re: The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

#159
post #2

This article talks about sanity, but doesn't really state what it is. What it describes is essentially just alternative perspectives born out of those rejecting, or rejected by, society. This state has indeed produced profound ideas, but it has also produced even more nonsense ideas. The article makes the classical mistake of the binary: There's the mainstream, and the higher "hypersane". Unfortunately things aren't…

>This state has indeed produced profound ideas, but it has also produced even more nonsense ideas Can you say with 100% confidence what is profound and what is nonsense in this Universe? >The article makes the classical mistake of the binary: There's the mainstream, and the higher "hypersane". The two are extreme points so that we can see the difference, of course, there are all kinds of intermediate states as Diogen…

> Can you say with 100% confidence what is profound and what is nonsense in this Universe?

Given that profundity only makes any sense at all in the context of humans, with a fair degree of confidence (100% is never possible), I believe a reasonable measure is possible. The funny thing about profundity is: It means the advancement of thinking in people. To further add to this, it means advancing society, by extension of advancing its people (Unless you can find exceptions for which humanity does not benefit from cooperation). Advancement of people can be measured, if people agree on criteria. You might even create a measure based on how many different, sometimes competing criteria it advances. One proviso to this is that it is not easy to do so immediately, we usually need to look at the results over time, as it is an empirical measure on society.

Never forget, it's easy to retreat to "Well nothing is absolute, so why bother". The fact that we can create measures that have broad agreement mean we can come up with practical compromises that would essentially guarantee that ideas can never be equal. Yes that does mean that broad agreement will favour society, see the previous paragraph. Also, due to the time issue, broad agreement does change, and it should. So again, not 100% but reverting to that requirement is also not useful. The other dimension in which broad agreement is slippery is, what is the population of people you're asking. This is the edge of where ideas are forged. So even though a wider population may not get broad agreement of something, time will tell.

If there's one final point which I will make which drives home that it is important to have some measure, it is embedded in this saying "We stand atop the shoulders of giants". Without measure, what giants? What ideas can we actually build upon and hope to get something that isn't random chance.

>The two are extreme points so that we can see the difference, of course, there are all kinds of intermediate states as Diogen was not walking with a lamp during daylight when he was 5.

I get that, as I said, the profound has come from this mode of thinking. However, the issue is the framing of the article, it posits that becoming hypersane essentially necessitates being divorced from society in it's entirety. That part is not so well supported. But what this framing does do, is make it seem like anyone who doesn't agree with society has an edge in their thinking (and being, given we seem to be focusing on individual capacity) and should therefore continue with what they are doing. My sense is that this is somewhat orthogonal to success in creating the cutting edge. Clearly accepting everything in society without question can't, but this notion that you must go through madness seems outlandish. The framing seems very good however, to pandering to the various counter-culture desires, and the article does state the author has an upcoming book on the subject.

Re: The hypersane are among us, if only we are prepared to look

#160
post #16

My interpretation of the point the author is trying to make: The 'hypersane' are those among us who have realized, for better or for worse, that the traditional things that most in a society strive for - material wealth, social status, conformity to social structures, etc. - aren't really the keys to happiness and that when you "awaken" (and become hypersane, I suppose) you realize that along with those things come s…

I think this quote sums up my thoughts pretty well:

> Seek the company of those who search for truth; run from those who have found it.

In the end, the cosmos don't care what we believe, or value, or strive for. We will die all the same. Our species will become extinct. And the universe will end.

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