Cooler heads will say this is a show and a first warning to HK.
Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong
131–140 of 426 posts
Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
> they absolutely cannot come into Hong Kong, it would be a totally stupid move Strategically, for China? Yes. Politically, for Xi? Maybe not. Remember that Xi is a dictator. Moves that boost him in the short term at China’s long-term expense are on the board.
Not to mention a military takeover of Hong Kong would generate valuable data and experience that could be usefully applied to an invasion of Taiwan.
Valuable data about the public and international outcry and response- they already have all the war games simulated out.
Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
My points about about native Americans and Australians could be construed as Whataboutism. But the Opium Wars aren't fodder in an equivalency argument, they are literally the very reason that HK even exists. Again, I must repeat, I do not at all condone China's lack of respect for human rights. All I am saying is that people need to know the actual context of the situation. If HK had come into being due to centuries…
> All I am saying is that people need to know the actual context of the situation. The actual context of the situation is that indeed, if the British hadn't controlled Hong Kong for a time this conflict wouldn't be happening. It wouldn't be happening, because people in Hong Kong wouldn't know what it is to live in a free democratic society as they lived in the last half a century of British "occupation", so they woul…
I agree that free, democratic societies are better. I am in fact British, so I should know.
Listen, I'm genuinely interested in how you and others justify the destiny of Hong Kong. So we're in agreement that democracy is better, and for example there's a very tenuous argument that the violence the West used in Iraq was necessitated by an existing autocratic regime. However the violence used by the UK to gain HK was utterly unprompted and motivated purely by economic greed. Democracy may well be the better choice for HK, but in what way does it deserve it? How can any argument in support of HK's democracy not also justify absolute violence against all other currently non-democratic states?
It's unfortunate, but HK didn't come across democracy by its own struggle in the way most countries did. Such foundations are just inherently unstable, how can it possibly be any other way?
Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
Xi is very much a dictator, but he also needs money to maintain his dictatorship. HK for all its faults and bads is still quite important to the Chinese economy. That's why we haven't become Xinjiang, IMO.
To pick a single data point, I'd assume that someone who bans all Winnie The Pooh pictures across a country after comparisons are made with themselves, has very probably gone insane and become utterly drunk on power. Do not expect Xi to do something sane, especially if he feels insulted. I think HK's best hope is for something else big to distract him. Unfortunately, I think it is very likely right now that he will i…
History is filled with insane leaders who made terrible choices. Sometimes it seems stranger that leaders make rational decisions.
Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong
#135Cooler heads will say this is a show and a first warning to HK.
Indeed. And a warning more to the HK overlords than to the protesters.
Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you are a military force, there absolutely is a concept of entering your own territory, going back to the Rubicon. When a country deploys it's own troops internally, as opposed to the police, it's often a forerunner to martial law or civil war.
I would have been happy with deployed.
Enter implies attacking force, deployed does not, so deployed is not correct in the context of the article.
Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is just the brainwashing that you've received growing up in the west. I know because I grew up in the US, but I've learned more about other countries and realized that things aren't really like this.
Accusing people of being brainwashed isn’t a strong argument.
Accusing those who accuse people of being brainwashed of not having a strong argument is not a strong argument.
Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
What does that got to do with anything? Why do people keep bringing centuries old examples of the shortcomings of western civilization, to apologize for the very present disregards against human rights in many non-western countries? Specially in a case where the legacy that is being put in question is exactly the culture of respect for human rights, civil liberties and democracy brought by an Western nation, that is…
My points about about native Americans and Australians could be construed as Whataboutism. But the Opium Wars aren't fodder in an equivalency argument, they are literally the very reason that HK even exists. Again, I must repeat, I do not at all condone China's lack of respect for human rights. All I am saying is that people need to know the actual context of the situation. If HK had come into being due to centuries…
Then maybe china can offer hk folks help in resettling? Ask around and see if any other country would like to take in these people who clearly don't want chinese rule?
Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
Xi is very much a dictator, but he also needs money to maintain his dictatorship. HK for all its faults and bads is still quite important to the Chinese economy. That's why we haven't become Xinjiang, IMO.
I think hks importance is extremely arguable. Hks gdp is barely 3 percent of china's with a stalling growth rate. I've worked in both Shanghai and Hong Kong and I can say a lot of the large cities are much much nicer in China now. You also have a lot things like hackathons and events where you see lots of young creative people who really want to make things. In Hong Kong the culture is more towards looking good in a…
Let’s face it. Hong Kong is effectively a backdoor. It’s a great place for almost anyone rich enough to do money laundering like stuff. For example, when mainland tightened its currency exchange control, people still transfer money via HK in someway. It’s sometimes disgusting
Re: Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong
#140China got away with it once but escalation is in principle a sign of weak government. Compare a nation like France which mostly waited it out.
Don’t think France “mostly waited it out” when there has been more injured yellow vests than HKers so far: 2 more or less connected deaths, 1 person lost lower arm, and at least 24 lost an eye, including one of the most pacific yellow vest leader Jerome Rodrigues https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/14/europe/france-bastille-day-in... In many ways, french police did repress protesters in a much more brutal way than HK police…
That's a very biased take on what happened in France.
The protesters were burning cars and destroying public and private property to vast extents, besides throwing Molotov cocktails at the police.
The yellow vests went way, way beyond their right to protest.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/-yellow-vest-protests-grow-v...
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/yellow-ve...