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Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

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Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#41

From engineering standpoint it is not an easy task to balance random load that comes and goes from solar, centralized solar plants is one thing but panels on the roof is another. While electricity is abundant running the grid is not such an easy task as it may seem. So this might explain why there is such push back from utility companies against uncontrolled user solar devices connected to their grid.

what does "balance the random load" mean in an engineering context? i would have thought electricity would balance itself?

Solar does weird things to the baseload.

Before solar, utility companies would install baseload plants (nuclear, coal, AFAIK) which output power at a constant rate for cheap. The idea is that your baseload plants would provide power right up to the trough of the demand curves.

Solar causes that trough to deepen but doesn't get rid of the peaks (see duck curve). That forces power companies to close down baseload plants, but add peaker plants (usually natural gas) which are generally more expensive to operate.

This is where grid storage enters for a green grid. It brings two benefits, it can raise the demand trough making baseload plants attractive. It can also drop the demand peak, decreasing the need for additional peakers plants.

The problem is that we don't have a lot of viable storage options. Best case for a region is having a lot of hydro available. Pumped hydro would make sense, but there aren't many places where you can install it (it requires a lot of water, land, local buy-in). Batteries work, but have cycle limitations. You could do flywheels, but they are expensive for the power stored. Heck, one even seen "fill a pit with gravel, heat it up, boil water during peaks to generate power". Which may make sense, particularly for colder regions where that heat could also heat housing.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to ignore. Just as easy as 2003 when the American empire secured the ME oil unilaterally from Iraq by ousting Saddam while all other powers made no retaliation for the move other than strong condemnation which is really the same thing. No one liked it, but no one was really going to lift a finger to prevent it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Off...

The oil was already flowing in 2003. 1991 was fought over the oil, 2003 was fought over ideology and wishful thinking.

By ideology do you mean daddy issues?

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what does "balance the random load" mean in an engineering context? i would have thought electricity would balance itself?

Electricity absolutely does not balance itself. Passively, the energy that goes into the grid must come out somewhere. Electrical utility companies manage this with two major levers: 1) Standby power plants, that are running but not producing at full load. The plant load is actively adapted to the monitored needs of the grid. 2) Hydroelectric storage, to soak up excess production, where hydroelectric dams with second…

To add to this, when too much energy is fed into the grid, the net frequency increases slightly. Thus, the control variable is net frequency. There is lots of research on this problem.

When the net frequency increases so does the rotating speed of all turbines. The inertia of those turbines is one way how excess energy is buffered.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#45
post #23

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

Or alternatively, that the market has a better grasp of the situation than the head of solar analysis at BloombergNEF. Just because she has 'head' and 'solar' in her title doesn't mean she is all-knowing about the solar market. If solar actually represented a better deal companies would be falling over themselves to install solar panels everywhere. It is likely that there are important realities or risks that the ana…

When you consider that governments spend trillions of dollars a year subsidizing fossil fuels (this is not an exaggeration), maybe that’s why it hasn’t been taken up despite it being cheaper? And because like any new technologies there are additional factors, such as fear of different and new, and entrenched interests pushing against the new efforts.

https://www.vox.com/2019/5/17/18624740/fossil-fuel-subsidies...

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#46
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The oil was already flowing in 2003. 1991 was fought over the oil, 2003 was fought over ideology and wishful thinking.

By ideology do you mean daddy issues?

I think he’s referring to some who to this day believe in “nation building” and imposing democracy where it’s not ready to take root. Ostensibly this democracy would spread and we’d have fewer adversaries as more regimes aligned with internationalism and globalism.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#47
post #11
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a flat, as most europeans do. I'm not even the owner, so how I am supposed to push for that. Even if the owner did I don't think the surface of the roof is enough, not to mention that it has shadows from other buildings, antennas and so on.

It's likely that you would need to get planning permission to put solar panels on the roof of a building. This generally requires you to be the owner. Therefore it might not be best described as a market failure. It could be better described as a failure due to planning regulations that only give power to land-owners. This is big problem in Europe, since as you point out: many people rent.

When you own a condo, a similar problem arises: you need everyone in the building to agree, since the roof is shared. In my building, this would be a non-starter.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#48
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing solar panels has become more and more uninteresting, at least in Germany. In former times there were generous subsidies for installing solar panels: You got, I think, a fixed amount per kWh that you installed on your roof and you also got a better price for the electricity that you put back into the grid. In Germany it's called "Einspeisevergütung" if I remember correctly. This program was limited though,…

Germany already has extremely high energy prices (~0,29€/kwh) of which nearly 0,07€ is just for renewable energy subsidies. More investments will not increase jobs, because China produces solar panels at way lower costs. While I agree that coal needs to be phased out, it's not so much about the 20k jobs but more so about base-load. You either need massive storage (which comes at massive cost) or some other form, i.e.…

No doubt that we can't produce solar panels cheaper than China. I would look more into inventing and developing storage technologies. That is a world wide market, not dependend on any specific type of renewable energy. That's probably where Germany could "shine" if you want to phrase it like that.

And if we got that going for us, neither coal nor nuclear are needed anymore. Probably.

(Although I'm all in for new nuclear technologies I think our aging reactors are nothing to be proud of. Maybe we could create new jobs in fusion reactor research and development, too. I'd like that.)

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#49

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

I live in a large apartment building in the Netherlands, during the last home owners association meeting we discussed installing solar panels. The problem is the huge uncertainty the government creates. At the moment it is allowed to just deduct the amount of power you create from the amount you use and pay for the remainder. This way the government does not collect energy tax on the energy you create from your solar, thus they treat this as a subsidy. They announced that this subsidy will end by 2023, it is not clear how things will be after that time. Most of the home owners agreed that the risk they will change it into a regulation that will be (financially) bad for us is too large so we are not installing them until there is more clear.

But even then, the government changes at least every 4 years, how am I supposed to make a long term investment - (solar takes about 10 years for return on investment around here, with current regulation) - if I don't know if I will be screwed by the next administration? Especially now that the support for the "climate change denial party" is growing.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#50
post #40
post #21

Fundamental problem of this type of article: comparing $/kWh across energy sources without accounting for energy dispatchability. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatchable_generation ) See people commenting on Germany and Portugal situations or articles by this man ( https://medium.com/@oliviercorradi )

Solar, when combined with energy storage, can serve as a dispatchable resource. Even with battery storage, solar is already cheaper that existing dispatchable coal generation. http://ieefa.org/ieefa-u-s-solar-plus-storage-is-undermining...

Interesting, even though it's just feasibility study > it would be economic for PacifiCorp to close the existing coal generation under question and replace that capacity with other resources, including new renewables, demand-side solutions, battery storage, gas peakers and open-market purchases Curious to see the exact combination of these options and their associated emissions
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