Fundamental problem of this type of article: comparing
$/kWh across energy sources without accounting for energy dispatchability. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatchable_generation)
See people commenting on Germany and Portugal situations or articles by this man (https://medium.com/@oliviercorradi)
Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city
21–30 of 115 posts
Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city
#22> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.
I live in a flat, as most europeans do. I'm not even the owner, so how I am supposed to push for that. Even if the owner did I don't think the surface of the roof is enough, not to mention that it has shadows from other buildings, antennas and so on.
Solar may not be the best option for your particular location. You might consider purchasing some sort of carbon offset corresponding to your use (pay to plant x trees etc).
Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city
#23> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.
Or alternatively, that the market has a better grasp of the situation than the head of solar analysis at BloombergNEF. Just because she has 'head' and 'solar' in her title doesn't mean she is all-knowing about the solar market.
If solar actually represented a better deal companies would be falling over themselves to install solar panels everywhere. It is likely that there are important realities or risks that the analysts have missed.
Either that, or someone is going to make a killing installing solar panels on a lease-to-buy basis.
Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city
#24> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.
Most people don't spend enough on energy to make cost savings a big priority. With solar, there are tangible benefits right now if you know what you are doing but delaying your investments a few years may mean you get more benefits. Increasingly it is not the panel cost but everything around it (inverters, batteries, installation cost, etc.). All those things are subject to economies of scale. Basically, you get a delayed effect. In a few years it will go from cheaper to way cheaper to magnitudes cheaper. At that point things get more urgent.
Another thing to consider is that supply and demand are not that well matched currently. Basically, there's no such thing as over production for batteries or solar panels currently and even installation is bottle-necked on availability of people to do that. That reflects in the pricing as well.
IMHO, the biggest change with solar is that energy cost goes from a variable cost to basically a fixed cost (one time investment in batteries + panels) + variable revenue (from selling excess energy) + variable cost for when your panels don't deliver enough juice. The market is still adapting to this and e.g. the ease of selling excess energy varies between markets.
Some companies are going to get more benefit than others. E.g. any companies operating vehicles will probably want to switch to EV. At that point charging them with their own solar panels becomes attractive; especially when combined with vehicle to grid revenue.
Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city
#25This isn't meant to be troll-y / snark-y, but if the USA factored out subsidies for Big Oil, and then added in the military costs associated with keeping the oil flowing, that would make solar look much more attractive.
Even if we become energy independent from ME oil, which we’re net independent I think, (and about 90% on the crude side?) then we still have Japan, Europe and many parts in Asia which need uninterrupted oil supplies from the ME.
It's easy to ignore. Just as easy as 2003 when the American empire secured the ME oil unilaterally from Iraq by ousting Saddam while all other powers made no retaliation for the move other than strong condemnation which is really the same thing. No one liked it, but no one was really going to lift a finger to prevent it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Off...
Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city
#26This isn't meant to be troll-y / snark-y, but if the USA factored out subsidies for Big Oil, and then added in the military costs associated with keeping the oil flowing, that would make solar look much more attractive.
This isn't only sunk cost, it's attributed to different budgets. You would struggle to get many people to accept the subsidy exists. Likewise in car manufacture, or aircraft, or almost any established industry with a large cost/price distinction and externalities unmet. All gas and oil has fugitive C02 issues. Look what happened with that gas storage well in California which had months long leaks. Were the owners req…
Sunk cost shouldn't be a factor at all.
It is already spent, it shouldn't affect future investment decisions, see the 'sunk cost fallacy'.
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/03/25/the-sunk-cost-fallac...
Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city
#27From engineering standpoint it is not an easy task to balance random load that comes and goes from solar, centralized solar plants is one thing but panels on the roof is another. While electricity is abundant running the grid is not such an easy task as it may seem. So this might explain why there is such push back from utility companies against uncontrolled user solar devices connected to their grid.
what does "balance the random load" mean in an engineering context? i would have thought electricity would balance itself?
I interpreted the term “random load” to mean unpredictable supply given variable external factors like specific locations’ weather.
Edit: fixed wording
Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city
#28This isn't meant to be troll-y / snark-y, but if the USA factored out subsidies for Big Oil, and then added in the military costs associated with keeping the oil flowing, that would make solar look much more attractive.
This quip is a common trope that has several problems with it and is years out of date. Please stop using it.
First, oil-based energy doesn't compete with solar to a large extent. That will change as EVs get more popular, but outside of islands like Hawaii, oil isn't used much for electricity generation (where solar competes).
Second, solar is already attractive for most new generation scenarios in many locations, including dispactchable situations where you also need storage. It's getting so cheap that it's starting to compete with existing generation.
http://ieefa.org/ieefa-u-s-solar-plus-storage-is-undermining...
Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city
#29From engineering standpoint it is not an easy task to balance random load that comes and goes from solar, centralized solar plants is one thing but panels on the roof is another. While electricity is abundant running the grid is not such an easy task as it may seem. So this might explain why there is such push back from utility companies against uncontrolled user solar devices connected to their grid.
what does "balance the random load" mean in an engineering context? i would have thought electricity would balance itself?
I'm no electrician myself, but I know that it's not easy to generate a really good sine wave with a constant frequency and match it to the grid.
While electronic componentes are making big steps in that direction, "classic" mechanical generators are still superior for this as they are running very constant.
That's why lots of people fear that solar panels with their sudden power generation (as in "clouds are gone, let's bring it on!") might be a danger to the grid as they are fluctuating quite a bit.
Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city
#30> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.
The government nudge should target the energy storage issue by creating cost incentives for energy companies to build out this technology. I don't see how consumers can reasonably cooperate on consuming during daytime, when production is peak. (Automating home consumption via connected devices might result in net loss of energy as the devices' production/use gobbles rare materials and data.)