I don’t hire Junior data-scientists • Hacker News Board

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#11

Post by linkerzx » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:07 PM UTC

lunias wrote: post #9

Is this targeted at junior data scientists? Is the intent for them to know that their code is inefficient, unformatted, overly specific, weird ass, and wrong? I don't disagree that large amounts of people graduating from computer science programs are under-equipped to enter the workforce, but maybe focus on the shortcomings of the educational system than the people coming out of it.

Frankly the issue is more that a lot of them are dreaming of a position that they are not ready for, and want that from the get go.

They are generally ill equipped, but do not regard position such as analyst and engineers which would give them the foothold they would need to enter that position after a couple of years.

What they have to learn goes far beyond coding and entails getting a sense for data, the business sense that goes with it, an understanding of how to put models, etl code etc.. into production...

Most is fairly hard to teach in a classroom and rather requires practical experience in a business context, so I think the issue is more of an expectation issue than an educational issue. Although it is partially exacerbated by programs such as "Msc of DataScience", that makes student believe they would be ready for these positions straight after graduation.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#12

Post by not_a_cop75 » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

There should be a follow up article "Why I don't work for Julien Kervizic"

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#13

Post by linkerzx » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:26 PM UTC

not_a_cop75 wrote: post #12

There should be a follow up article "Why I don't work for Julien Kervizic"

Did You read the article fully, before going ad hominem?

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#14

Post by imbored » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:27 PM UTC

It's a job you grow into by not working at the job.

If you can't grow people at your company then no one should work for you. That simple.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#15

Post by linkerzx » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:28 PM UTC

imbored wrote: post #14

It's a job you grow into by not working at the job. If you can't grow people at your company then no one should work for you. That simple.

It's a job you grow into by not working at the job.: Agreed! There are quite a few paths which makes it easy to grow into, such as analyst or data/software engineer. There is however a mismatch of expectation that you can just start as a data-scientist out of school, which represent a steep learning curve and that people are usually not ready for.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#16

Post by imbored » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

lunias wrote: post #9

Is this targeted at junior data scientists? Is the intent for them to know that their code is inefficient, unformatted, overly specific, weird ass, and wrong? I don't disagree that large amounts of people graduating from computer science programs are under-equipped to enter the workforce, but maybe focus on the shortcomings of the educational system than the people coming out of it.

It's not a shortcoming of the educational system. People need experience to be good at things. Engineers take years after school, doctors take years after school.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#17

Post by imbored » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

linkerzx wrote: post #11

lunias wrote: post #9

Is this targeted at junior data scientists? Is the intent for them to know that their code is inefficient, unformatted, overly specific, weird ass, and wrong? I don't disagree that large amounts of people graduating from computer science programs are under-equipped to enter the workforce, but maybe focus on the shortcomings of the educational system than the people coming out of it.

Frankly the issue is more that a lot of them are dreaming of a position that they are not ready for, and want that from the get go. They are generally ill equipped, but do not regard position such as analyst and engineers which would give them the foothold they would need to enter that position after a couple of years. What they have to learn goes far beyond coding and entails getting a sense for data, the business s…

The degree should get you to a point where you can actually learn the job.

You hire juniors and give them as much work as they can do with supervision.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#18

Post by imbored » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

linkerzx wrote: post #5

TrackerFF wrote: post #2

These all seem like things you can figure out during the hiring stage. You could be losing out on some really talented employees by simply distrusting all junior candidates due to some prior incidents. I've worked with some absolutely top-notch candidates straight out of college, and some mediocre ones which plenty of experience.

There is always some exception to the rule. Frankly the issue is more the number of topics one needs to learn to actually add value as a data-scientist. Junior data scientists need a hell lot of supervision compared to analysts or data-engineers. Most of what it takes to be a data-scientist is acquired on the job rather than something learned in class. And yes some of that could be checked during the interview, but t…

Junior anything needs a lot of supervision, it's probably the defining trait of a junior.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#19

Post by linkerzx » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

imbored wrote: post #17

linkerzx wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly the issue is more that a lot of them are dreaming of a position that they are not ready for, and want that from the get go. They are generally ill equipped, but do not regard position such as analyst and engineers which would give them the foothold they would need to enter that position after a couple of years. What they have to learn goes far beyond coding and entails getting a sense for data, the business s…

The degree should get you to a point where you can actually learn the job. You hire juniors and give them as much work as they can do with supervision.

"The degree should get you to a point where you can actually learn the job."

I think the question there is "how fast"?

"You hire juniors and give them as much work as they can do with supervision." - Agree to a large extent, the main problem there is that their expectations don't usually match what they are ready for.

Re: I don’t hire Junior data-scientists

#20

Post by imbored » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:45 PM UTC

linkerzx wrote: post #15

imbored wrote: post #14

It's a job you grow into by not working at the job. If you can't grow people at your company then no one should work for you. That simple.

It's a job you grow into by not working at the job.: Agreed! There are quite a few paths which makes it easy to grow into, such as analyst or data/software engineer. There is however a mismatch of expectation that you can just start as a data-scientist out of school, which represent a steep learning curve and that people are usually not ready for.

Oh we disagree entirely. I am openly mocking the idea that you should learn the job by not doing it. That data scientists are just oh so special that no one can be a junior at it.

It's ridiculous. If you can't mentor someone at the job, then that speaks to your failures. It's not the job that's the problem.