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Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

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Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#111

Post by stetrain »

Excel_Wizard wrote: post #93
jfrankamp wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one who charges an EV away from home is charging at that rate, that's for an at home 'trickle' charger. Look up any L2 charger and you're well above that rate, and rates are only going for public chargers.

I miscommunicated context. The 40 miles in 18 hours is the at-home charging. I wanted to emphasize how restrictive that charging window is.

That's also for just a standard 110v outlet. Works fine for me with a ~25 mile round trip commute.

And that's usually not charging from 0 to 40 miles of range. The car's battery starts each morning at 90% (a limit set in the car), and ends the day at 90% minus 25 miles. So even though it's only charging 25 miles each night (which doesn't take all night), it's ready to go 300 miles whenever I need to.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#112

Post by thfuran »

NullPrefix wrote: post #99
duskwuff wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, keep in mind my numbers are assuming a large, perfectly efficient solar panel under ideal conditions. Realistic numbers will be much worse. For example, most commercially available solar panels are 20-25% efficient.

1.3kW/m^2 * 20% efficiency = 260w/m^2 260w/m^2 * 5m^2 = 1.3kW 1.3kW * 4 hours daily sun = 5.2kW/day 265 miles range / 85kW full charge capacity = 3.1 miles/kW 5.2kW/day * 3.1 miles/kW = 16.12 miles / day Still sounds too good, what did I miss?

That initial 1.3kW is ignoring atmospheric absorption. You lose some 300 W even at zenith without clouds. More if you're really far from the equator and/or it isn't currently solar noon. If you're in a city, you may be in shade a lot and certainly don't have the sun at its zenith for 4 hours regardless.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#113

Post by Mvhsz »

NullPrefix wrote: post #99
duskwuff wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, keep in mind my numbers are assuming a large, perfectly efficient solar panel under ideal conditions. Realistic numbers will be much worse. For example, most commercially available solar panels are 20-25% efficient.

1.3kW/m^2 * 20% efficiency = 260w/m^2 260w/m^2 * 5m^2 = 1.3kW 1.3kW * 4 hours daily sun = 5.2kW/day 265 miles range / 85kW full charge capacity = 3.1 miles/kW 5.2kW/day * 3.1 miles/kW = 16.12 miles / day Still sounds too good, what did I miss?

5m^2 is too big for a car, and the panels are heavy and expensive. Toyota used to have a prius with a solar panel roof - it produced enough energy to run the fans (not the AC) while the car was parked on a hot day. Not even in the ballpark of the energy needed to move the car (and it was an expensive option).

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#114

Post by oh_hello »

I always thought this was a big problem for EVs, but recently came to think nightly charging might not matter so much for these drivers. If an urban apartment dweller has an EV with 200+ miles of range, can't a public fast charger be used once or twice a week instead? I lived in an apartment with a ~200 mile range ICE car and filled it less than once a week.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#115

Post by txcwpalpha »

NullPrefix wrote: post #99
duskwuff wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, keep in mind my numbers are assuming a large, perfectly efficient solar panel under ideal conditions. Realistic numbers will be much worse. For example, most commercially available solar panels are 20-25% efficient.

1.3kW/m^2 * 20% efficiency = 260w/m^2 260w/m^2 * 5m^2 = 1.3kW 1.3kW * 4 hours daily sun = 5.2kW/day 265 miles range / 85kW full charge capacity = 3.1 miles/kW 5.2kW/day * 3.1 miles/kW = 16.12 miles / day Still sounds too good, what did I miss?

16.12 miles a day is not going to cut it. In your previous comment you suggested 50 miles a day. In various studies, Americans drive >30 miles a day.

16 miles would hardly even cover most American's one-way commute, let alone any other errands or trips.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#116

Post by jimnotgym »

lonelappde wrote: post #36
ecpottinger wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since it does not take an hour to charge for a normal drive, maybe you are the one with bad timing. If a person is driving 30 miles or less a day they only need less than 10 minutes charging to get by.

Taking your car to the fuel station every day is a nuisance. ICE cars only need to go about once a week.

I drive 100 miles a day, and park away from my house but could still have an electric car, if only my workplace installed chargers. Isn't that the answer? I work on an industrial estate with 450v (minimum) 3 phase power in every building. There is a huge amount of flat roof space for solar too.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#117

Post by tdiggity »

ecpottinger wrote: post #32
tdiggity wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California for Condo/Townhome owners. However, in my experience, it didn't help. I had a condo with a shared garage, and the HOA said I had to pay for not just a line from the electrical room to my parking spot, but also the equipment/piping to scale it to any of the other parking spots. What would have been a $2000 installation turned into much more. My point being, even though there are laws that allow you to do th…

Sounds like your HOA needs a visit from your lawyer. Making pay for all costs for your needs is one thing, demanding you pay for costs for everyone else is another. Bet if you did pay for it all, the HOA would not credit you for any other BEV owner you attracted and tapped into the power lines. Sounds like they want the benefits but none of the costs.

Yea, exactly. The bill leaves this part of it in a grey area. What are "reasonable" costs that an HOA can impose? Getting a lawyer involved would have been very costly. I eventually sold the stupid place and moved on.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#119

Post by mattlutze »

goldcd wrote: post #101

I'd seen the idea of using street-furniture, such as lamp-posts - but can't help seeing visions of coils of cable looping all over the pavement/sidewalk (in the UK at least, lamp posts tend not to be on the road side of the pavement). Plus, if this isn't new-build, whatever's powering those lamps isn't going to charge your car. Well.. it might charge one or two, but once you've got 20 cars, all wanting to be charged…

In Stuttgart, Germany, Daimler piloted a rent-by-the-minute electric car program (which is proliferating with normal petrol cars elsewhere, called Car2Go). The Smart ForTwos that they use are all electric, and the cable is bolted into the trunk of the car, so it takes its cable with it. The charging unit and car's "fuel port" are both receptive sides of the connection, and both the car and the charging station (the city installed them so anyone with the right cables can use them) has a lock that keeps the cable from getting removed when it's in use.

Works pretty well and this sort of model would likely work fine, with you keeping your cable yourself.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#120

Post by neogodless »

oh_hello wrote: post #114

I always thought this was a big problem for EVs, but recently came to think nightly charging might not matter so much for these drivers. If an urban apartment dweller has an EV with 200+ miles of range, can't a public fast charger be used once or twice a week instead? I lived in an apartment with a ~200 mile range ICE car and filled it less than once a week.

It's mentioned elsewhere in the comments.

> This issue will hopefully be transient; once charging speed is comparable to filling your ICE vehicle with fuel.

> Until then, the lack of fast public chargers combined with the relative slowness of charging makes this a major downgrade from ICE.

In other words, the only reason most people are OK with this one attribute of EVs that is inferior to ICE is the fact that they can charge at home (and/or work.) But there are plenty of people that do not fit into that category.

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