Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars? • Hacker News Board

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#51

Post by freehunter » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #35

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #20

This is why we need standard, swappable battery packs. You pull into a "filling station" and a robot pulls your used pack and pops in a new one. 5 minutes, in and out. Sad thing is, this isn't a new idea. People just don't seem to want it.

People just don't seem to want it. People right now feel that the advantages of batteries integrated throughout the chassis are greater.

Yeah standard swappable batteries are nice but as we can see in the cell phone and laptop world, they're very restrictive on design choices. And since EVs are very sensitive to weight and aerodynamics, coupled with the fact that EV makers are trying to put as many batteries into the car as they can, there's just no way to make a one-size-fits-all battery that works for every car.

You'd either need to trade off battery density (which means EV range concerns are amplified) or trade off weight and aerodynamics (which means EV range concerns are amplified).

No general consumer EV maker is going to reduce the total range on their spec sheet just to make it easier to swap a battery that also fits several other cars that they don't make. It's not a smart marketing decision.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#52

Post by dmitrygr » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #6

Why does everyone need a place to charge at home? Sure, it is one of the big advantages of an EV, but not everyone can take advantage of it. If the car has a 300-400 mile range, then charge it like you fuel up a gas-powered car. Takes a little bit longer, but that will improve over time.

A little longer? What am I going to do at a gas station for an hour? I am already bored when I am there for 3 minutes with an ICE car...

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#53

Post by dmitrygr » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

arkitaip wrote: post #37

Once cars get smart enough to actually drive on their own, your car can sneak off to the nearest charging station while you are at work or sleeping at home.

So what do we do for the 50 years between now and then?

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#54

Post by mattlutze » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

imposterr wrote: post #21

To me, this seems like a transient problem. As battery technology improves, we may be able to move back towards a "gas station" model for charging. BMW/Porsche already has a charging solution that can do 100 km in 8 minutes [1]. [1] https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/282364-bmw-porsche-demo-...

If there was no switching time, that'd be 7.5 cars / hour for a potentially every-other- or every-third-day quick charge, and the high voltage required does reduce battery life (I think).

I'd be curious to know how long gas stations plan on someone staying at a stall for a full fuel up, to know what sort of capacity in an area would need to be replaced or added.

Part of the benefit of EVs is that fueling points don't require all of the fluids storage and safety; putting in transformers can be easier and allow fitting charging points to many more places a car gets parked. But it'll still be an interesting issue if an optimum charge takes 20-45 minutes.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#55

Post by nategri » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

Currently living this lifestyle. Luckily there's a set of level 2 chargers in a nearby parking garage that don't see heavy use, so I just charge there.

But I still have to pay a premium, and walk half a mile there and back, so it's not exactly as hassle free as just plugging in when I get home. Also need to plan ahead significantly if I'm driving anywhere far.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#56

Post by michrassena » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

bkohlmann wrote: post #17

Not exactly pertinent to "garage orphans," but i was struck by the picture featured in the article and the design choice of how electric chargers look. They seem to be an exact replica of a traditional gas nozzle. Striking to me how initial conditions matter for human perception and adoption. While EV is an entirely new technology and thus could be built from a cleanslate, the easiest way to drive adoption was to sha…

Is this just another example of Skeuomorphism? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeuomorph

I can see where this would drive adoption. From the user standpoint, familiarity is a selling point. The more the electric car can be seen as a drop in replacement to the internal combustion vehicle, the less the potential buyer has to consider. If the Tesla were steered by two sticks instead of a steering wheel, it probably wouldn't ever appeal to more than the enthusiast.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#57

Post by Pfhreak » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #31

Pfhreak wrote: post #13

Where will garage orphans add gasoline to their cars if they must park on the street? If only there was a way to add energy to a vehicle outside of the home. Cars park all over the place. Distributed charging infrastructure doesn't sound too impossible -- parking meters probably already need electricity. Park and rides or business parking lots incentivize people to shop or commute in certain ways for a relatively mod…

It's not really comparable. Garage charging makes EVs more convenient than ICE cars, but they're much less convenient if you can't charge at home. ICE cars can stop at a gas station on empty and be back on the road completely full in two minutes. Even with a fast charger, it takes upwards of half an hour to charge an EV. Level 2 charging takes hours.

Maybe the PNW is different, but there are chargers everywhere here. Charge during work, while you shop, etc.

Charging will be an incentive or even an expectation. Imagine if your employer said, "We'll fill your tank with gas while you work", people would love that perk. Having free or subsidized charging at work seems like an inevitability to me.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#58

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:49 PM UTC

davrosthedalek wrote: post #43

Finnucane wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a guy with a Tesla around the corner from me, who does this (cable out the 2nd floor window), and he does park on the street. Not sure what he does if he can't get a space close enough. (A neighborhood of row houses with little off-street parking) I think the car makers have to accelerate integrating solar charging into their cars. You probably wouldn't get 100% of your charge that way, but you could get enou…

I wonder what pedestrians et al. think about the cable running across the sidewalk. I don't think this solution scales well, also from an insurance perspective.

There was a time when I was renting a room in a house in East Oakland. The home owners had a traffic cone, and I used one of those cable-covers to cross the sidewalk. I never had a problem, other than overhearing a young woman who lived next door call me, "That douchebag with the electric car."

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#59

Post by xbmcuser » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #31

Pfhreak wrote: post #13

Where will garage orphans add gasoline to their cars if they must park on the street? If only there was a way to add energy to a vehicle outside of the home. Cars park all over the place. Distributed charging infrastructure doesn't sound too impossible -- parking meters probably already need electricity. Park and rides or business parking lots incentivize people to shop or commute in certain ways for a relatively mod…

It's not really comparable. Garage charging makes EVs more convenient than ICE cars, but they're much less convenient if you can't charge at home. ICE cars can stop at a gas station on empty and be back on the road completely full in two minutes. Even with a fast charger, it takes upwards of half an hour to charge an EV. Level 2 charging takes hours.

Workplaces need to install solar panels and chargers for electric cars. A large percentage of cars are parked for 7-8 hours at work and 8-10 hours at home. Charging car batteries with solar energy in the afternoon is the most optimal way to decrease carbon use as charging at home at night means you are using the most carbon intensive electricity.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#60

Post by calyth2018 » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #6

Why does everyone need a place to charge at home? Sure, it is one of the big advantages of an EV, but not everyone can take advantage of it. If the car has a 300-400 mile range, then charge it like you fuel up a gas-powered car. Takes a little bit longer, but that will improve over time.

I don't have a garage, and the work charger charges by the hour.

So if one has an EV, and it doesn't charge quickly, you'll be dinged through the nose.

Had the charger been charging for the kwh + a margin, then sure. But as is, EVs are off the table for me.