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Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

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Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#51

Post by oraphalous »

317070 wrote: post #41
oraphalous wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protesters may not clearly understand their own endgame, but the CIA certainly understands its own... which is to precipitate an armed crackdown that diminishes Chinese prestige - giving the U.S. further leverage in the current battle for global pre-eminence that is occurring between the two powers. And no - I don't have evidence of CIA involvement, except for the somewhat co-incidental timing of the unrest relat…

Just a thought, but the cause-and-effect relationship you suggest between the protests and the trade war might be the other way around? I.e. the protests causing the timing of the trade war?

Economic realities tend to determine political events - not the other way around... historically speaking.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#52

Post by high_derivative »

This is intensely interesting because everything points towards China never backing down, and protesters having nothing to win. The default assumption is continuity of the party and the system.

Yet, looking at history, systems are not that stable. The Berlin wall and Sowjet union seemed like they would not end.

I assume 3-letter agencies have vast amounts of resources dedicated to analyzing how to create the instabilities that may ultimately make such systems collapse.

Bottom line, historically speaking, we should not be surprised if China collapses. We should also not be surprised if the party keeps its tight grip for another 100 years.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#53

Post by hvidgaard »

cdmckay wrote: post #26
hvidgaard wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, they force China to show its real intentions. Most of the world already know, but getting them to, by action, admit it publicly would be a victory for the protesters. Not that it will save the HK they live in.

China has already stated their real intentions. After 50 years of autonomy, there will be no 1 country, 2 systems. They stated this when they took over control of HK and Macau. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems

From the very first paragraph of your link

> Under the principle, each of the two regions could continue to have its own governmental system, legal, economic and financial affairs, including trade relations with foreign countries.

Yet they're trying to pass a law that essentially allow China to extradite people in HK to mainland China, for any reason mainland China makes up. That is not 1 country, 2 systems as the legal system in mainland China can dictate what people they want extradited from HK. Even the EU have made a formal complaint against the law.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-extradition-eu/e...

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#54

Post by onetimemanytime »

maeln wrote: post #43
bitanarch wrote: post #28

The new protests happened because a new round of violence from the HK Police, towards both protesters and people unrelated to protests. e.g. Firing less-lethal rounds directly at head level, causing permanent blindness https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cowgje/a_female_p... e.g. Planting evidence into protester's backpack https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/coypg7/police_put... e.g. Firing tear gas in…

I will add that there is now suspicion of police infiltrating protest to start violent clash: https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1474213-20190812.h... I wouldn't be very surprise if it was the case as it is often a tactic use, even in our western democracies, to justify stronger and more violent police operation and also tarnish the image of the protest.

Hong Kong is a matter of national security to China. Something countries go to wars till the last man over. So what you mentioned is nothing, China has a lot more goodies in the bag. Here's one: Granting pardons or giving immunity to top criminal gangs as a long as they kill xxx revolt leaders.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#55

Post by notwumao »

I am a mainland-born Chinese who studied in the US and have been living in HK for over a decade. Just want to share what I saw recently: an overwhelming majority of Chinese people who grew up in mainland, regardless of where they live and work now, disapprove of the HK protesters' activities. Many mainland Chinese living in HK, who were largely not interested in politics in the past, have started donating money to pro-government causes. Supportive comments of the mainland government have risen dramatically among private chatters. It seems to me that the HK protesters' messages do not resonate well with most Chinese people.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#56

Post by Multicomp »

yshnurxghtfh wrote: post #39
oraphalous wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protesters may not clearly understand their own endgame, but the CIA certainly understands its own... which is to precipitate an armed crackdown that diminishes Chinese prestige - giving the U.S. further leverage in the current battle for global pre-eminence that is occurring between the two powers. And no - I don't have evidence of CIA involvement, except for the somewhat co-incidental timing of the unrest relat…

why has this been downvoted? Of course everyone who plays the game will evaluate what they can make out of a new situation.

In response to the protests, the government line has been to continue to stall and to claim that everything happening in Hong Kong is magically just the result of foreign interference by actors like the CIA, that way they don't have to actually listen to their own people, they can just plug their ears and say lalalalala the CIA did it all.

This comment appears to support that general narrative, so I suspect people are seeing that and not wanting to see the standard government obfuscation line here are downvoting it.

Just ask yourself, if the CIA has such control over Hong Kong that it could cause 10 weeks of protests by large large amounts of the population, whether or not they wouldn't have already declared independence and declared themselves a mini United States state or something to that effect.

The Hong Kong government's accusation and Beijing's continual messaging that this is all just the United States messing with them is untrue, a bald faced lie and ridiculous on its face if you think about it, but they haven't come up with anything better just yet so they're just sort of holding onto that line for anyone who will listen.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#57

Post by pjc50 »

pishpash wrote: post #36

You gotta ask with a critical mind, why is it that things are going just fine in Macau with the same One Country Two Systems setup?

Macau is 1/10 the size with an economy mostly focused on gambling? Macau has a significantly weaker democratic tradition having been part of the Portuguese military dictatorship until 1974?

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#58

Post by mushufasa »

ninedays wrote: post #6

"Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here." People are fed up about how the system works and about their life and the life of people they know. They want things to be "better" without having to clearly define and write a 167 page law that will probably not benefit them. People are expressing their dissatisfaction and IMHO that's a valid justification for protesters and good enough for me.

They have very specific "5 demands"

1. no extradition to china

2. retract characterization of protests as riots

3. exonerate arrested protestors

4. investigate police misconduct

5. resignation of the PRC-appointed executive and... democracy

they are literally protesting for democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extraditio...

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#59

Post by yyhhsj0521 »

oraphalous wrote: post #17
ninedays wrote: post #6

"Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here." People are fed up about how the system works and about their life and the life of people they know. They want things to be "better" without having to clearly define and write a 167 page law that will probably not benefit them. People are expressing their dissatisfaction and IMHO that's a valid justification for protesters and good enough for me.

The protesters may not clearly understand their own endgame, but the CIA certainly understands its own... which is to precipitate an armed crackdown that diminishes Chinese prestige - giving the U.S. further leverage in the current battle for global pre-eminence that is occurring between the two powers. And no - I don't have evidence of CIA involvement, except for the somewhat co-incidental timing of the unrest relat…

Julie Eadeh (a diplomat at the US consulate in Hong Kong) was seen meeting a leader of the protesters. It certainly smells fishy.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#60

Post by oraphalous »

oraphalous wrote: post #46
yshnurxghtfh wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why has this been downvoted? Of course everyone who plays the game will evaluate what they can make out of a new situation.

I'll just leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowbird

pjc50 - it won't let me reply to you directly. I just mean it as a demonstration of the links between local HK authorities and foreign intelligence services. It wouldn't take much for the CIA to leverage those links.

Keep in mind also that Chinese state media has publicly accused the CIA of involvement in the HK protests. Haven't seen that reported much have you? You wouldn't.

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