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Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

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Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#31

Post by jddj »

pasiaj wrote: post #13
ninedays wrote: post #6

"Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here." People are fed up about how the system works and about their life and the life of people they know. They want things to be "better" without having to clearly define and write a 167 page law that will probably not benefit them. People are expressing their dissatisfaction and IMHO that's a valid justification for protesters and good enough for me.

Everything you say seems correct. The problem is that movements without specific, clearly defined policy goals tend to fail. It is easy to come together to oppose some bad thing , but it is really hard to find consensus on what to do after the bad thing has been defeated. So while movements without specific policy goals can win elections, the usually cannot bring effective change. Is independence the goal here?

It's made more difficult (partly due to the lessons learned from the umbrella movement) because this has been a leaderless movement, which while making it difficult to disappear the people managing it, also must make it more difficult for defined policy goals to form (although some have emerged).

It seems to be developing organically as the people come to understand how much momentum they have and how much their peers agree with their frustrations.

I'd speculate that if they somehow gained enough momentum that it appeared to be within reach then independence would probably be the end goal, but who knows.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#32

Post by cdmckay »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #19
dustinmoris wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I don't think that HK have an actual plan here. They just protest for the sake of protesting. China will never step down and if anything HK makes it really really easy for China to claim more control now over HK because HK proves itself to be not in control of its citizen. China is the most important market in the world, no other country will intervene with China, especially not given that the largest country…

Luckily, for their own sake the people of Hong Kong aren't cowardly and acquiescing to the loss of their freedom. Letting China get away with dominating Hong Kong isn't going to do them 1 tiny iota of good long term, if they ever hope to make a stand, the time is now.

Or maybe the people in China are happy with their system? Not sure how that makes them cowards.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#33

Post by culturestate »

pishpash wrote: post #30
culturestate wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This movement (which has been building for years) has one very specific goal: true universal suffrage and free elections. Whether that comes as a protectorate of China or as an independent state seems almost inconsequential to many people. Everything else (extradition, the five demands, et cetera) is just a series of sub-plots leading to self governance.

They had that chance in 2014, but rejected all compromise or incremental improvement.

Elections aren't free if you can only vote for candidates that have the government's blessing.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#34

Post by barry-cotter »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #19
dustinmoris wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I don't think that HK have an actual plan here. They just protest for the sake of protesting. China will never step down and if anything HK makes it really really easy for China to claim more control now over HK because HK proves itself to be not in control of its citizen. China is the most important market in the world, no other country will intervene with China, especially not given that the largest country…

Luckily, for their own sake the people of Hong Kong aren't cowardly and acquiescing to the loss of their freedom. Letting China get away with dominating Hong Kong isn't going to do them 1 tiny iota of good long term, if they ever hope to make a stand, the time is now.

> Luckily, for their own sake the people of Hong Kong aren't cowardly and acquiescing to the loss of their freedom.

Luckily how? They’re going to lose. If they want freedom they’re going to have to leave China for it, emigrate. All the protest isn’t going to buy them victory. The CPC isn’t going to allow Hong Kong to publicly defeat it; that would be domestically politically disruptive. They’d rather abrogate the one country two systems agreement and just abolish the SAR’s freedoms altogether.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#35

Post by cltsang »

Not sure what the government is trying to achieve by shutting down the airport and sending in the police to clear the scene. AFAIK the protesters are not causing any trouble there, no flights are affected.

There are many who chose to sit-in at the airport since they do not agree with the escalation of the protests in other districts. Also there are elderlies and parents who have to carry and look after their children, who just cannot bear tear gas and rubber pullets.

This act by the government will only catch more foreign attention, and put more pages on the pile of recent police brutality.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#37

Post by bsaul »

flyinglizard wrote: post #2

Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here. It's unthinkable that China would step down. If anything, they are forcing China to take direct action, because if they let HK do its own thing, it won't end there for China.

To look at potential endgames, one needs to look back at history and see how people protesting for more freedom against dictatorial regimes have gone ( either through independance, or regime change).

French revolution was a blood bath, soviet union collapsed after 80 years for economical reasons (among other things), and i don’t know of any independance gained without some kind of military conflict involved.

My best bet for HK would be if someone living there could release massive financial information about china’s largest companies proving most of them are fraudulent (if that’s the case), and cause a major economical meltdown ( hoping for a regime change in china itself)... But that means aiming for the head, which means you only get one chance.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#38

Post by pasiaj »

jddj wrote: post #31
pasiaj wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you say seems correct. The problem is that movements without specific, clearly defined policy goals tend to fail. It is easy to come together to oppose some bad thing , but it is really hard to find consensus on what to do after the bad thing has been defeated. So while movements without specific policy goals can win elections, the usually cannot bring effective change. Is independence the goal here?

It's made more difficult (partly due to the lessons learned from the umbrella movement) because this has been a leaderless movement, which while making it difficult to disappear the people managing it, also must make it more difficult for defined policy goals to form (although some have emerged). It seems to be developing organically as the people come to understand how much momentum they have and how much their peer…

I searched and found the five demands:

one, the bill must be withdrawn; two, the chief executive must resign; three, the government must retract its characterisation of the violent clashes as “riots”; four, there must be a full independent inquiry into the actions of the police and; five, everyone arrested in respect of the clashes must be unconditionally freed.

More here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extraditio...

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#39

Post by yshnurxghtfh »

oraphalous wrote: post #17
ninedays wrote: post #6

"Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here." People are fed up about how the system works and about their life and the life of people they know. They want things to be "better" without having to clearly define and write a 167 page law that will probably not benefit them. People are expressing their dissatisfaction and IMHO that's a valid justification for protesters and good enough for me.

The protesters may not clearly understand their own endgame, but the CIA certainly understands its own... which is to precipitate an armed crackdown that diminishes Chinese prestige - giving the U.S. further leverage in the current battle for global pre-eminence that is occurring between the two powers. And no - I don't have evidence of CIA involvement, except for the somewhat co-incidental timing of the unrest relat…

why has this been downvoted? Of course everyone who plays the game will evaluate what they can make out of a new situation.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#40

Post by pishpash »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #19
dustinmoris wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I don't think that HK have an actual plan here. They just protest for the sake of protesting. China will never step down and if anything HK makes it really really easy for China to claim more control now over HK because HK proves itself to be not in control of its citizen. China is the most important market in the world, no other country will intervene with China, especially not given that the largest country…

Luckily, for their own sake the people of Hong Kong aren't cowardly and acquiescing to the loss of their freedom. Letting China get away with dominating Hong Kong isn't going to do them 1 tiny iota of good long term, if they ever hope to make a stand, the time is now.

Nah, they don't really think anything will happen to them in HK. While admirable in certain respects, they are not even taking half the risk that Tian'anmen Square students took, hiding behind their masks.
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