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Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

news.rthk.hk

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Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#21

Post by EliRivers »

dustinmoris wrote: post #3
flyinglizard wrote: post #2

Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here. It's unthinkable that China would step down. If anything, they are forcing China to take direct action, because if they let HK do its own thing, it won't end there for China.

Agreed. I don't think that HK have an actual plan here. They just protest for the sake of protesting. China will never step down and if anything HK makes it really really easy for China to claim more control now over HK because HK proves itself to be not in control of its citizen. China is the most important market in the world, no other country will intervene with China, especially not given that the largest country…

In China people looked relaxed, spent time relaxing in parks and socialising. I went to Hong Kong and it was unbearable crammed, people were stressed and over worked and there was no escape from the hamster wheel. No wonder mainland Chinese have little sympathy for HK.

I don't follow. If life in China is so nice and life in HK is so stressed and unbearable, wouldn't the people of mainland China have more sympathy for HK?

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#22

Post by pishpash »

sgjohnson wrote: post #12
skilled wrote: post #10

I don't understand why HK hasn't done anything about this? I mean, the protests. This doesn't look like your average worker strike and people seem genuinely determined to get a change of direction. Anyone who has been involved with this, can you comment on the latest government response to the "demands" from people?

Because the HK government are Chinese puppets. They can't (and don't want to) do anything, because their communist overlords don't want to. There's too many protestors to dissapear them all.

Making simplistic caricatures won't help the cause. There is a constitutional path towards having these demands discussed off the street, but some people have no respect for process while denouncing the same of the other side. "My way or the high way." No sympathy for either side.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#23

Post by culturestate »

pasiaj wrote: post #13
ninedays wrote: post #6

"Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here." People are fed up about how the system works and about their life and the life of people they know. They want things to be "better" without having to clearly define and write a 167 page law that will probably not benefit them. People are expressing their dissatisfaction and IMHO that's a valid justification for protesters and good enough for me.

Everything you say seems correct. The problem is that movements without specific, clearly defined policy goals tend to fail. It is easy to come together to oppose some bad thing , but it is really hard to find consensus on what to do after the bad thing has been defeated. So while movements without specific policy goals can win elections, the usually cannot bring effective change. Is independence the goal here?

This movement (which has been building for years) has one very specific goal: true universal suffrage and free elections. Whether that comes as a protectorate of China or as an independent state seems almost inconsequential to many people.

Everything else (extradition, the five demands, et cetera) is just a series of sub-plots leading to self governance.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#24

Post by krig »

dustinmoris wrote: post #3
flyinglizard wrote: post #2

Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here. It's unthinkable that China would step down. If anything, they are forcing China to take direct action, because if they let HK do its own thing, it won't end there for China.

Agreed. I don't think that HK have an actual plan here. They just protest for the sake of protesting. China will never step down and if anything HK makes it really really easy for China to claim more control now over HK because HK proves itself to be not in control of its citizen. China is the most important market in the world, no other country will intervene with China, especially not given that the largest country…

You realise that you don't see dissent in China because dissent is a death sentence there?

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#25

Post by hdkrgr »

pasiaj wrote: post #13
ninedays wrote: post #6

"Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here." People are fed up about how the system works and about their life and the life of people they know. They want things to be "better" without having to clearly define and write a 167 page law that will probably not benefit them. People are expressing their dissatisfaction and IMHO that's a valid justification for protesters and good enough for me.

Everything you say seems correct. The problem is that movements without specific, clearly defined policy goals tend to fail. It is easy to come together to oppose some bad thing , but it is really hard to find consensus on what to do after the bad thing has been defeated. So while movements without specific policy goals can win elections, the usually cannot bring effective change. Is independence the goal here?

While there's certainly small parts of protesters whose aim is independence, the movement at large has very clearly communicated 5 well-defined demands since the end of June and by and large stuck with them.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#26

Post by cdmckay »

hvidgaard wrote: post #5
flyinglizard wrote: post #2

Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here. It's unthinkable that China would step down. If anything, they are forcing China to take direct action, because if they let HK do its own thing, it won't end there for China.

In that case, they force China to show its real intentions. Most of the world already know, but getting them to, by action, admit it publicly would be a victory for the protesters. Not that it will save the HK they live in.

China has already stated their real intentions. After 50 years of autonomy, there will be no 1 country, 2 systems. They stated this when they took over control of HK and Macau.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#27

Post by pishpash »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #16
flyinglizard wrote: post #2

Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here. It's unthinkable that China would step down. If anything, they are forcing China to take direct action, because if they let HK do its own thing, it won't end there for China.

This year is the 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen protests and the 70th anniversary of the People's Republic of China (to be celebrated on October 1st). In January the Presidential election will also take place in Taiwan. And, of course, there is also the tense situation between China and the US at the moment. We can imagine a lot of scenarios and competing interests at play here. Forcing China to take direct action…

Well fuck me if there is no organization here. The longer this goes on, the more it seems strategically planned and logistically organized well beyond the capability of naive 17-year-olds.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#28

Post by bitanarch »

The new protests happened because a new round of violence from the HK Police, towards both protesters and people unrelated to protests.

e.g. Firing less-lethal rounds directly at head level, causing permanent blindness

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cowgje/a_female_p...

e.g. Planting evidence into protester's backpack

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/coypg7/police_put...

e.g. Firing tear gas in subway station, which was being used by the general public

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cp8qyy/hong_kong_...

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#29

Post by barry-cotter »

Darmody wrote: post #4
flyinglizard wrote: post #2

Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here. It's unthinkable that China would step down. If anything, they are forcing China to take direct action, because if they let HK do its own thing, it won't end there for China.

So they should stay at home and accept anything that comes from China?

No, do something that has a chance of helping them, their friends and their families and start the process of emigration. The Chinese government is no more going to back down now than they were in 1989. They have much less sentimental attachment to the people of Hong Kong than to the students who protested then. The PRC will absolutely send in the People’s Liberation Army to occupy Hong Kong if that’s the only way to restore order with them in charge. They’d prefer a broken, bowed and destroyed Hong Kong with them in charge to anything that looks like them losing.

Re: Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over

#30

Post by pishpash »

culturestate wrote: post #23
pasiaj wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you say seems correct. The problem is that movements without specific, clearly defined policy goals tend to fail. It is easy to come together to oppose some bad thing , but it is really hard to find consensus on what to do after the bad thing has been defeated. So while movements without specific policy goals can win elections, the usually cannot bring effective change. Is independence the goal here?

This movement (which has been building for years) has one very specific goal: true universal suffrage and free elections. Whether that comes as a protectorate of China or as an independent state seems almost inconsequential to many people. Everything else (extradition, the five demands, et cetera) is just a series of sub-plots leading to self governance.

They had that chance in 2014, but rejected all compromise or incremental improvement.
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