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A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

technologyreview.com

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Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#11

Post by new2628 »

Expez wrote: post #8

I recently finished Enlightenment Now by Steven Pinker and this exact point was made in that book. I'll paraphrase a salient quote from the book: poverty is the greatest polluter. Intuitively this makes great sense: when you're eking out a subsistence living you're not going to care about the environment, but when resources are plenty you can afford to consider other living things too.

This seems to contradict the simple observation that, by and large, the poorer a country the more biodiversity it has.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#12

Post by SolaceQuantum »

new2628 wrote: post #11
Expez wrote: post #8

I recently finished Enlightenment Now by Steven Pinker and this exact point was made in that book. I'll paraphrase a salient quote from the book: poverty is the greatest polluter. Intuitively this makes great sense: when you're eking out a subsistence living you're not going to care about the environment, but when resources are plenty you can afford to consider other living things too.

This seems to contradict the simple observation that, by and large, the poorer a country the more biodiversity it has.

Not necessarily- a poor country with high biodiversity or other natural resources are a known phenomenon [0]. Also, another known issue is that the most polluted rivers are often from developing countries, partially because developed countries are sending their trash there.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#13

Post by lozenge »

jt2190 wrote: post #9

> The book... says there are four main forces... that enable decoupling in mature economies: > * the efficiencies driven by capitalism > * technological progress that has allowed us to “dematerialize” our consumption (by, for instance, cramming atlases, compasses, calculators, recorders, cameras, stereos, and other gadgets into a single device in our pocket) > * public awareness of environmental damage > * government…

In other words, if government regulations incentivise efficiency, then our capitalist economy will provide that efficiency.

Which is what any environmental economist--or any economist generally--would tell you.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#15

Post by lozenge »

avip wrote: post #14

How does that reconcile with the actual (admittedly outdated) facts? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_...

He is looking at carbon efficiency - emissions divided by GDP. On top of that, he's looking at the change in efficiency rather than the actual efficiency, thus he can boast that the US is increasingly efficient, instead of noting it is already very inefficient.

Of course, the planet is based on physics and doesn't understand GDP, so this is all in a wider sense irrelevant.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#16

Post by briandear »

Expez wrote: post #8

I recently finished Enlightenment Now by Steven Pinker and this exact point was made in that book. I'll paraphrase a salient quote from the book: poverty is the greatest polluter. Intuitively this makes great sense: when you're eking out a subsistence living you're not going to care about the environment, but when resources are plenty you can afford to consider other living things too.

Simple Maslow is all this is.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#17

Post by justicezyx »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #7

It brings this up in the article, but I have a very difficult time believing this isn't just because rich countries have shifted manufacturing and mining to poor countries. Look at recycling. We all thought we were so environmentally aware by recycling, but turns out so much "recycling" was just "ship to poor countries to deal with the fallout".

Wasn’t rich countries also forcefully deprived the wealth of the developing countries before the inception the great development?

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#18

Post by algaeontoast »

I think another attribute of this is education and being aware that there is slightly more to life than just the pursuit of money. Sure, people with means fall for this all the time, but I think poor people also commonly enter the same trap. Note that a pursuit of saving face and appearing rich is entirely different than the pursuit of wealth - but a pursuit of money could take either path.

For instance, understanding why burning down a rain-forest to make $100 might not be worthwhile, akin to uber drivers endangering drivers and pedestrians to make $15.

Sometimes developed western countries seem to have sympathy for people who are willing to deforest African nations (whom are also usually helpless to act against these transgressions) and poach endangered animals (an obvious heinous act) and oddly sometimes progressives will state that it's less-bad because they're poor / uneducated...

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#19

Post by star-trek-fleet »

MrSlovenia wrote: post #3

Makes sense: when a country has an industrial revolution it just wants to grow fast. Then when the extreme growth part passes it starts to stabilize: this is when the country & the people start doing well enough so that they can look at other issues (environmental impact) without having to sacrifice their livelihoods. The human will always prioritize his own and his families livelihood. Only once that is stable can o…

> that is not how human nature works.

Please add should, this should not be how human nature works.

Also, one capitalist cannot on the one hand free will is the key for prosperity, and at he same time ask others to think beyond others’ basic life needs while suffering.

Re: A new book asserts that rich countries grow with lighter environmental impacts

#20

Post by mushufasa »

This is also called the Environmental Kuznets Curve (1991) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznets_curve#Environmental_Ku... .

There's a lot of criticism in the literature. The statistics rarely live up to the theory at face value. (https://steadystate.org/wp-content/uploads/Stern_KuznetsCurv...). And often, new pollutants emerge in rich countries as others decline.

For example, in the USA, water pollutants targeted by the Clean Water Act (1972) have declined, but new pollutants have emerged which aren't measured or managed by the policy. Recent years have seen an explosion in estrogen hormones that turn male fish to hermaphrodites that lay eggs, coming from unchecked fertilizer runoff and birth control sewage. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/02/160203-femin...

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