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Death of the Neighborhood Bar

bostonmagazine.com

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Re: Death of the Neighborhood Bar

#61

Post by mjevans »

closeparen wrote: post #35
_red wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Harvard Professor Robert Putnam has pointed out: One of the effects of "increased diversity" is that there is a shift away from being a high-trust society. This causes, among other things, increased isolation and social disengagement. No doubt this isn't the only cause of pubs / bars closing, but it is a real measurable effect.

Third places typically cater to specific demographics. "The sports bar," "the gay bar," "the cop bar," etc.

The non-teetotaler's bar... for getting drunk or otherwise mentally impaired.

Re: Death of the Neighborhood Bar

#63

Post by bscphil »

thinkingkong wrote: post #5

If we remove alcohol from the equation I think whats more pertinent is the death of the “third place”. Churches are dying. If the article is to be extrapolated then smaller local bars are dying. Where do people go other than online to socialize. Thats important to understand.

My experience is that some churches are dying and some are growing. Unfortunately it's the ones I (and possibly you) would go to that are dying.

Churchgoers are moving from mainline Christian denominations to more extreme evangelical or fundamentalist denominations. Evangelicals have become a majority of all Protestants [1]. Generalizing, these churches are stridently political in character, and often have social beliefs unacceptable to most of us.

What we are seeing is many churches having reoriented themselves with respect to society: while before they were community meeting places in areas with nearly identical backgrounds and beliefs, now they define themselves in opposition to a diverse community and the changes it brings.

In other words, it's not just that people have abandoned churches (secularization); it's also that many churches have self-consciously abandoned their roles as third places.

[1] https://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-1-the-changing-r...

Re: Death of the Neighborhood Bar

#64

Post by arcturus17 »

selimthegrim wrote: post #34
okcando wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably purposeful, to draw parallels. The author also can't quite make up his mind about whether drinking becoming less popular is good or bad. It's relatable content. When you have a bunch of nostalgia and identity (and money, in this guy's case) invested into something, I guess it would be hard to admit that overall, it's categorically been to society's detriment.

Don’t you love how everyone on HN thinks they can do journalism too off the cuff just because tech disrupted it? Glad to see taste hasn’t been disrupted

I thought the article was really well-written, felt like a good mix of fact and emotion. I read it to the end which I don’t do with about 80% of HN stories...

Re: Death of the Neighborhood Bar

#65

Post by raygelogic »

apo wrote: post #48

About half the article is about a regular named Richard, who dies: > When I heard that Richard was in a bad way, I figured he was at a low point in another cycle. I expected that I would just see him at the Plough the next time I dropped in. Instead, he died. Nothing is said about what killed him, but I suspect there might be a clue here: > Arguably, their [bars'] lifeblood—alcohol—has destroyed more American familie…

I don't think mental gymnastics are necessary. he's owner of an institution that has clearly played a huge role in his life, and that has been in his family for a long time. he strongly believes in the purpose of the business he runs, and the community that has formed within its walls. the purpose of the paragraph you quoted is to portray his own conflict with selling something that can be harmful. it doesn't sound like he's justifying his choices to me; it sounds like he's uncomfortable with the harm it's associated with, and is acknowledging it.

and as others have said, the neighborhood bar is unique in that the things you mention are things that people DO together, whereas the bar is a place where people simply BE together. I agree that those are places where you can make friends, but with those activities, what often happens is that mildly interested people come and go, and devotees form a hard social core that is difficult to penetrate. a bar--or a church, or elk's lodge or whatever--is a standing institution, whose main social function is community building of some kind.

Re: Death of the Neighborhood Bar

#66

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

crazygringo wrote: post #22
thinkingkong wrote: post #5

If we remove alcohol from the equation I think whats more pertinent is the death of the “third place”. Churches are dying. If the article is to be extrapolated then smaller local bars are dying. Where do people go other than online to socialize. Thats important to understand.

I honestly can't understand that at all. The "third place" has exploded and has never been more vibrant in the history of mankind, at least if you live in a city. Yoga classes, coffee shops, CrossFit, meetups, hiking groups, rock climbing, dance parties, marathons, evening painting classes where they serve wine, improv comedy shows, improv comedy classes, cooking classes, language classes, indie band shows of every t…

> coffee shops

Central Europe is losing the vibrant cafe culture it used to have, where people could sit together for hours and chat. Cafes today often blast loud pop music and send staff around more frequently to pester clients who seem to have finished their drinks, as owners believe this will prevent people from loitering. Instead, customers will quickly drink what they ordered and then get out, freeing the table for other customers.

Perhaps in the USA the situation is different, but I live in a city with a tradition of quiet, intellectual cafes that goes back centuries, and was still like that a decade ago, but now I am hard pressed to find a single place that would be pleasant to socialize even with my friends in, let alone mingle with other regulars and strike up conversations with strangers.

Re: Death of the Neighborhood Bar

#67

Post by tim58 »

rexpop wrote: post #43
crazygringo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly can't understand that at all. The "third place" has exploded and has never been more vibrant in the history of mankind, at least if you live in a city. Yoga classes, coffee shops, CrossFit, meetups, hiking groups, rock climbing, dance parties, marathons, evening painting classes where they serve wine, improv comedy shows, improv comedy classes, cooking classes, language classes, indie band shows of every t…

None of these are third places, though; they're more expensive commercial activities, and non-participatory performances. Not the same thing. They don't facilitate the same social or psychological functions as the relaxed, inexpensive, unstimulating and improvisational third-place.

> None of these are third places, though; they're more expensive commercial activities

Many meditation and Buddhist activities are free or donation only. It's a common attribute that Buddhist retreats are completely free before and during the event, and only after you receive a piece of mail soliciting a donation.

There _are_ more commercial meditation based activities but those are more lifestyle than spiritual.

Re: Death of the Neighborhood Bar

#68

Post by bscphil »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #37
csomar wrote: post #16

Anybody think it's about price? At least the quoted guy thinks so > Why go to a bar when you can go to a yoga class, WhatsApp your friends, crack open an inexpensive bottle of wine at home, and watch something on Amazon Prime? And I do believe that if beer prices were 1/3 of the usual, you'll see way more customers. Boston and some other US cities I have visited have, inexplicably, very high prices for bars and resta…

This times 1000. Back in the day around 10 years ago I could go out and spend less than or right around $20 for a night out (a few hours at my local haunt)... now I am unable to do that for less than $70. My wages have not increased 3x; so now, I go out maybe a couple times a month... and I even still drink cheap well whiskey (Old Crow, ka-kaw!).

> GP: And I do believe that if beer prices were 1/3 of the usual, you'll see way more customers.

I agree, but I don't think you'd see 3x the number of customers.

> Back in the day around 10 years ago I could go out and spend less than or right around $20 for a night out (a few hours at my local haunt)... now I am unable to do that for less than $70.

This makes me wonder where you live and what kind of bars you go to. I'm in a large American city that will appear on any list of most expensive cities to live in. Thinking about the places I've been to more than once, $20 would buy me about three beers - and even that price is vastly more expensive than the $12 price of a sixpack where I live. $70 would buy me enough beer to be passed out on the floor.

Now granted, I know there are fancy quiet bars for the wealthy. I was at one for someone's birthday once and mixed drinks started at about $15. And even $20 for a night out is high enough that I (not quite middle class in this city) can't do it often. But I wonder if you live in the most expensive part of your city, or if your tastes have become more expensive in recent years. To be sure, one isn't up for the atmosphere of a college dive every night, but I think in most cities there are still cheaper ways to go out with people.

Re: Death of the Neighborhood Bar

#69

Post by tim58 »

addicted wrote: post #58
icxa wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My spitball opinion on that: we had diversity in America during the beginning of the industrial age that we heavily relied on for it's host of benefits, innovation primarily as well, but it didn't create the conflict (conflict theory terms) we see today because you were expected to integrate (conform) to be "American", which was a shared set of values and beliefs. America is still today one of the few geopolitical di…

Except your opinion does not actually follow from the facts. African Americans weren’t just “hyphenated subgroups” earlier. They weren’t even allowed to be in the same places as white male americans. Similarly, Chinese Americans formthe most part lived a separate life, and Japanese Americans were considered so different they were placed in internment camps during WW2. Even the Irish and Italians were treated differen…

I'm going to double down on this.

Early America was so hyphenated that people only occupied regions with people of the same original nationality. We still see places with lots of French street names, or a place with lots of German street names. To some degree this might have been self-selecting, but there are documented cases of people being denied mortgages in particular areas based on their ethnicity into the twentieth century.

We are in a place in American history where ethnicity has the least amount of impact on someone's life. It's illegal to discriminate on job applications, mortgage applications, or school applications based on ethnicity.

We have a lot further to go, and sometimes we take a step backwards. I think we'll continue to see an increase in diversity in all public spaces.

Re: Death of the Neighborhood Bar

#70

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

tim58 wrote: post #67
rexpop wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of these are third places, though; they're more expensive commercial activities, and non-participatory performances. Not the same thing. They don't facilitate the same social or psychological functions as the relaxed, inexpensive, unstimulating and improvisational third-place.

> None of these are third places, though; they're more expensive commercial activities Many meditation and Buddhist activities are free or donation only. It's a common attribute that Buddhist retreats are completely free before and during the event, and only after you receive a piece of mail soliciting a donation. There _are_ more commercial meditation based activities but those are more lifestyle than spiritual.

What if you don’t believe in Buddhism or the particular meditation approach advocated? I agree that these sorts of events are not quite third places as a modern society of people of varied or no religious belief would expect.

Also, due to movements like the Hare Krishnas advertising free events (often without specifying that it was the Hare Krishnas or whatever other sect organizing it) for the sake of bait-and-switch recruitment, people are understandably suspicious of any vague "spirituality" or "meditation" event where free entrance is advertised.

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