Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you please elaborate on why guns are so sacred in the US? Is it for cultural/historical reasons?
samsonradu asks> "Can you please elaborate on why guns are so sacred in the US? Is it for cultural/historical reasons?" FWIW use of the term "sacred" is somewhat iffy as many an atheist has picked up a gun to defend himself. America was taken over and settled by Europeans who brought firearms for hunting and protection. There were already 20-100 million indigenous American Indians here: they covered the land. But the…
FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone
381–390 of 417 posts
Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone
#382Earlier quoted context omitted.
Roughly 30% of the population owns guns, and has everyday experience with people owning assault rifles who aren't a harm to anyone. The gun culture is the locus of a lot of important values in the US -- service to the country, acceptance of danger, self control, precise and accountable behaviour -- and gun owners are overall more law abiding than the general population. Gun owners haven't done anything wrong and don'…
So gun owners feel punished when their guns are taken away, and they feel this punishment is more severe than all the lives that are taken away because of mass shootings? And all the families that are ripped apart? If my 'right' harms so many people, I would not even want that 'right' in the first place. Guns perhaps made sense in an era where you had to protect yourself agains outlaws. Now we have governments to tak…
So gun owners feel punished when their guns are taken away, and they feel this punishment is more severe than all the lives that are taken away because of mass shootings?
The underlying thinking here is a kind of collective punishment trading or social bargaining; but that's not generally how regulating dangerous stuff works. There are lots of things that kill comparable numbers of people to guns. Do I need to list them? Generally with things that most people use safely but some people use in a way that gets them or others killed, we don't try to ban them but instead we:
(a) Criminalise misuse adjacent to death based on data (not based on emotion or intuition about what seems "dangerous" to uninformed people). For example, criminalising drunk driving because although it doesn't always kill people, it certainly kills them all out of proportion to other driving.
(b) Introduce restrictions in venue that are conducive to safety.
(c) Try to educate the public and post warnings.
(d) Opportunistically encourage people to delegate responsibility to make things safer, even if we don't change their rights overall. For example, Uber seems to reduce drunk driving deaths; but that was not accomplished by either taking people's cars away or preventing them from drinking.
With regards to guns, there simply is no data to support the idea that assault rifles are more deadly than other weapons; or that other things which leftists oppose -- open carry, 30 round magazines -- lead to much change in the overall rate of gun deaths. Banning these kind of things makes about as much sense as banning liquor that's "too strong" because you tried it and "no sane person would like it".
Rifles are rarely a cause of murder, suicide or accidental death. Yes, they are used in mass shootings -- they aren't used in much else. Do you know how rare mass shootings actually are, and how small a cause of death mass shootings actually are? If we took the same approach to other small causes of death as you are proposing taking with regards to assault rifles, what are the policies we might have?
What definition of mass shootings are you actually using? How frequently are assault rifles used in them? There is a lot of variation in the way they are counted so it's hard to talk about the real impact of what you're proposing.
Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone
#383Earlier quoted context omitted.
Roughly 30% of the population owns guns, and has everyday experience with people owning assault rifles who aren't a harm to anyone. The gun culture is the locus of a lot of important values in the US -- service to the country, acceptance of danger, self control, precise and accountable behaviour -- and gun owners are overall more law abiding than the general population. Gun owners haven't done anything wrong and don'…
> The gun culture is the locus of a lot of important values in the US -- service to the country, acceptance of danger, self control, precise and accountable behaviour I have a hard time understanding what does acceptance of danger and self-control have to do with assault rifles? Can't those be exerted with a pistol? Also I fail to understand how people don't see guns as a liability. Just having one in the house would…
Not sure what policy you're proposing but whatever it is, it needs justification -- that's what limited government is about. No restrictions without reasons.
Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone
#384https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/04/fbi-could-have-gotten-...
Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone
#385Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The gun culture is the locus of a lot of important values in the US -- service to the country, acceptance of danger, self control, precise and accountable behaviour I have a hard time understanding what does acceptance of danger and self-control have to do with assault rifles? Can't those be exerted with a pistol? Also I fail to understand how people don't see guns as a liability. Just having one in the house would…
What you are trying to do here, is find some justification for guns; but that is not how a free country works. We don't need to ask the government permission to do stuff. We can still do things without having a good reason. Not sure what policy you're proposing but whatever it is, it needs justification -- that's what limited government is about. No restrictions without reasons.
We’re also forbidden to keep plutonium or enriched uranium in our basement regardless of what we use it for.
Hell there’s many free countries where it’s illegal to possess weed.
Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone
#386Earlier quoted context omitted.
Liability like car ownership. Failure to secure your weapons imparts liability. Guns stolen or sold without a background check that are used in a crime carry a punishment for the last registered owner. Punishment ramps up rapidly with multiple offenses. This will punish traffickers but also encourage safety.
Guns stolen or sold without a background check that are used in a crime carry a punishment for the last registered owner. Guns that are stolen would carry a punishment for the last registered owner?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/12/us/gun-traffi...
Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone
#387Earlier quoted context omitted.
America has vast and currently unimpeachable rights to weaponry. There is a huge swath of policy space between that and banning gun ownership. We can reduce gun ownership, trafficking and weapon deadliness a thousand different ways while not adversely impacting legitimate usage. Universal background checks, limiting purchase frequency, banning 100-round barrels, increasing liability for dealers.
...banning 100-round barrels... Not sure if you're joking there -- maybe you meant magazines? Like so many other gun regulation ideas, it seems superficially reasonable based on "danger" but it's almost never the case that items like that contributed measurably to gun deaths. They don't need to be banned -- they are niche items. Mass shooters who have access to them rarely use them. They rarely use 40 or 50 round mag…
Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone
#388Earlier quoted context omitted.
> We are literally talking about millions of people who would refuse to follow this law Wouldn't then they be criminals? There are millions of people who have been in jail (even for BS like marijuana, which killed far less people than guns, well, literally 0 people), so what would be special about them? > Seems like you are doing some sort of poes law parody of a gun grabber. Yes, but I also like the thought experime…
> Wouldn't then they be criminals? A lot of people justify genocide by calling the targets of their mass murder "criminals". We are absolutely not killing millions and millions of people in the US right now, as you are advocating for. No 1st world country is doing anything even close to what you are advocating, which is whole scale mass murder, on the same level of number of deaths, as all of the horrible genocides t…
I've suggested a no-deaths-whatsoever, totally legal process: make guns illegal, and have people hand them in to police. Peacefully. (In fact, to sweeten the deal, I'll now add that they will then get their money back (the price of the guns), plus a lollipop).
To which you obsess that "Most/millions of gun owning people will never hand them in, even if it's made illegal to have a gun" and then pretend that the only alternatives are "gun ownership allowed" and "mass murder of millions".
Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone
#389Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'll accept a solution that takes 30 years over nothing. Guns last a lot longer than 30 years. 80-120 years sounds more like it. They are not going away anytime soon even if you do ban them (which wont happen).
Then why do people keep buying them?
Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone
#390Is the argument that, without access to his phone, they can’t stop this guy from killing more people? Is it that they need the phone to tell them that white supremacy and assault rifles are things that exist in the US? Do they need the phone data for a conviction? I don’t understand what they expect to do with whatever they find that they can’t get from other sources. They can get location history and a pretty good i…