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FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

thehill.com

251–260 of 417 posts

Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess iCloud backups could then be a viable option then?

Yes, if iCloud backups are enabled, Apple does then have the keys required to decrypt backed-up iMessage messages.

That seems to completely defeat the point of it being end to end encrypted in the first place.

Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

#252
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone commits a mass killing with a gun, then it becomes a mass shooting. Yes. This sub-thread started with someone else arguing that one of the entries on the list of "mass shootings" did not deserve to be on the list. If the argument is "it must involve deaths to be a mass shooting", that incident also involved zero deaths (and zero innocent civilian injuries).

Wait, I was wrong. The definitions clearly differentiate between number of people shot and number of people killed, and the Wikipedia article is explicit about the sources used and the definitions used by the sources. There is nothing wrong with the list, but there seems to be some metalinguistic dispute about what's the best definition of "mass shooting." This dispute is merely about words.

While most forum disputes are about words, I think that @frittig makes a valid point in questioning whether the lawful shooting of active criminal home invaders ought to be considered a "mass shooting" just because there happened to be a lot of home invaders. So, yes it's about words in part, but also about concepts.

For my part, all else being equal, for every N criminal home invaders, the optimal number of home invaders repelled by lawful force without injury to innocent civilians is also exactly N. If you want to mix those relatively rare good mass shootings in with other bad mass shootings (the vast majority of them), that's one way to approach things. You could also keep a list of "Things that happened on Tuesdays in history" and it would be a perfectly self-consistent list.

Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was at a time when wars were fought with such arms, and the police had the same. Heck, that was true for 100+ years afterwards still. Now the police even has tanks and army level guns, and the army of course has 1000x the resources, airplanes, drones, etc. And of course, at the time the states were indeed independent and fighting fiercely for that. Now (and ever after the Civil War) it's all a charade, from what…

All the more reason to preserve what is left, then.

It is said that "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.".

I'd say this idea, that after you are guaranteed worse results, you should double down, is even more insane.

If anything, what I wrote is all the more reason to find new strategies that don't involve "we'll fight them with guns".

Besides who'll do the fighting? The kind of people that have guns are in more in favor of fascism and army rule than those who don't. So all it takes to get them on the side of the opressors it's to sell it to them as army control, as opposed to "big government" control.

Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically mass incarnation?

9HZZRfNlpR says> "Basically mass incarnation?" "mass incarnation"? Like https://www.bing.com/th?id=OIP.dL31G5Y3BQIg5Xv075saegHaHa&pi... ?? Is this some new Internet meme (e.g., "spam") that I missed?

Obviously means "mass incarceration" (throwing everybody to jail).

Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

#255

> In the US, there are more firearms than people. About one-third of all households have at least one firearm Nothing than 1) a total banning of sales, 2) a law that requires existing owners to return them for destruction, 3) 5 years jail minimum time for anybody even seen with one (and 20 years if they were involved in any criminal act while carrying it, regardless of the act), 4) and a mass confiscation campaign ca…

Basically mass incarnation?

No, there will be a one year grace period, during which there would be voluntary turn in of guns + mass confiscation.

If they still wont comply after one year, mass incarceration is an option. Alternatively people could be executed on sight.

Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but your low gun violence didn't just happen. People used to have guns, they liked their guns, but there were shootings. People including politicians realized they could do something about it. Some gun owners hated that, but shootings all but stopped. You're really the example that all "guns don't kill people" arguers hate having to try and explain away.

They didn’t “all but stop”. They’ve continued [1]. Why keep repeating The Australia Lie that anti-gun people love touting? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Austral...

It's worth pointing out that quoting this list is a little disingenuous. Considering only items on the list starting in 2000, only a third (8) appear to have involved firearms.

Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

#257
post #49

> Attorney General William Barr said in a speech last month that encrypted messaging services allow "criminals to operate with impunity." The cost of encryption is “ultimately measured in a mounting number of victims — men, women and children who are the victims of crimes, crimes that could have been prevented if law enforcement had been given lawful access to encrypted evidence," This disgraceful, emotionally manipu…

And it's crystal clear and obvious in this case that it doesn't matter. The man shot a bunch of people, and was subsequently killed to stop his slaughter. There is no doubt to his guilt. There is no case to build. While the public may wish to know more about the shooters motives, that's not something the public or any law enforcement agency needs to keep people safe.

Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

#258
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most Americans know that the government can quite easily enter anyone’s home if they want to.

Generally, not legally without a warrant, which can be a good enough deterrent. Or at least should be if our legal process is working at all.

You could say the same about a hypothetical encryption backdoor. The question is whether consumers should be allowed to use encryption the FBI can’t crack even with a warrant. I think the answer is “yes”, but…

Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This list gives me shivers...is the USA a scary, uncivilized country?

Yes, and it always has been. The murder rate per capita in the US has consistently been 5-10x higher than in Europe for the entire 20th century. Long before gun control, social safety nets, the drug war, or any other difference you might want to blame. The US is a low cohesion, high violence society.

As someone who grew up in the US, lived in the EU, Australia and NZ for a number of years, I can say on a day to day basis, it's still pretty much nothing.

The average American rarely ever has to directly confront violence. I've even spent years in major metropolitan areas and the majority of people don't walk around each day anticipating violence. My sister got mugged once, in our small home city, like 20 years ago. I've never personally been mugged or assaulted, but I did have one break in while in NZ (they took all my electronics) and I had a bicycle stolen in Australia.

I haven't lived in "bad parts of town" through (although friends told me I lived in a bad part of town in two places I lived in; but I really feel they were exaggerating) and in high crime areas I'm sure it's different.

But the portrayal the rest of the world sees of America is through a very limited lens. And German or Irish or Chinese person who comes to visit the US will see kids playing in parks, people in the cities walking to work or lunch, others browsing through stores or pumping petrol into their cars and it will generally looks pretty much like every other part of the mid/high income industrialized world.

Re: FBI tells lawmakers it can't access Dayton gunman's phone

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it’s highly unlikely to work in the first place, not to mention likely cost as much as their annual operating budget.

Mostly the former. There’s nothing expensive about decapping a chip and tossing it under an electron microscope.

A it’s not just an electron microscope but a cryo probing stations for sub 22nm lithography are insanely expensive.

You can’t simply decap and image a multi layer chip it’s not 80’s era masked rom.

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