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Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

bbc.com

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Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#121

Post by choko »

vnchr wrote: post #68
xwdv wrote: post #55

If you were in his position though why not just kill yourself off? At 66 there’s not much life left to live and what’s left is going to be pretty shitty anyway behind bars.

If I was his attorney, I would have advised he negotiate for a lighter sentence in exchange for cooperation around bringing others to justice. Standard practice. He could have gotten off with a light sentence and brought many others to justice. He’s literally done that before.

At his age, even a lighter sentence would likely be a life sentence. I think he knew that, and seeing the rest of his life would be court cases and jail, took the easy way out. Assuming this was in fact suicide, he made a logical choice.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#122

Post by [deleted] »

gridlockd wrote: post #84
liability wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not really, that doesn't seem like an interesting question at all. Can you convince me otherwise? It seems obvious to me that while a right to commit suicide might exist typically, somebody imprisoned is obviously not entitled to it. We restrict many rights when we imprison people, and I see no reason why the 'right to commit suicide' should not be one of them. Allowing such a man to kill himself denies his victi…

> No, not really, that doesn't seem like an interesting question at all. You say that, yet you went through the trouble of writing a reply that ponders this exact question: At what point does suicide become morally acceptable? I do think it is an interesting question. I'd go the way of saying: If you still have serious responsibilities (as in this case), it is immoral. It's worth noting that suicide used to be a seri…

[deleted]

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#123

Post by DanBC »

anonu wrote: post #77

How does a guy on suicide watch kill himself? This is a massive failure of Justice.

"Suicide watch" covers a range of activity. Someone may be getting a visual check once an hour, once every 30 minutes, or once every 15 minutes. That may be as simple as looking through a hatch / peephole to see if the person isn't obviously ligatured, or it may include calling to the person and hearing a response.

There's not much evidence that 15 minute observations work, and some evidence they cause harm. If someone's risk is high enough for them to be on observations they probably need to be on continuous observations.

Continuous observations are tricky. Imagine another person being with you 24 hours of the day, watching you while you eat, bathe, defecate. We want to avoid them if possible because it doesn't build the patient's / prisoner's safety. It keeps them safe for those few days, but it may significantly increase their risk afterwards.

And this is if the observations actually happen. Sometimes staff lie. https://twitter.com/KirstenSjovoll/status/106738247933674291...

15 minute obs disturb sleep and don't work: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/art...

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#124

Post by willis936 »

Millennium wrote: post #65

What a waste. May none mourn this creature's passing, but his particular case represented too many valuable opportunities for him to be allowed to die before trial. Whoever allowed enough of a lapse in his suicide watch that the concept of him being "found" at all even makes sense should be fired and sued for gross malfeasance.

Even then they would only be getting another little guy, and not the malicious party.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#126

Post by DanBC »

pixelperfect wrote: post #63
febeling wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. He has motive for suicide, too, though.

Yes, but he was already on suicide watch. I would be interested in seeing statistics on how often prisoners succeed in committing suicide while on suicide watch.

Page 7 onwards, this is about patients in English mental health hospitals though: https://www.merseycare.nhs.uk/media/4267/simonfinallitrev.pd...

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#127

Post by yodsanklai »

mc32 wrote: post #11

This sounds too convenient. If this was a suicide and not anything more sinister, this is gross negligence by prison authorities. It was their solemn duty and responsibility to see this person face trial. This will only inflame conspiracy theory minded people to believe there is a vast conspiracy by the powerful to protect themselves. This is depressing. I’m yet hopeful evidence will be used to bring guilty parties t…

Call me naive, but I would simply conclude the jailing facilities are underfunded and unable to prevent someone from committing suicide.

I just can't imagine someone being able to order such a murder. There would be too many people involved and risks of getting caught.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#128

Post by cpr »

mc32 wrote: post #11

This sounds too convenient. If this was a suicide and not anything more sinister, this is gross negligence by prison authorities. It was their solemn duty and responsibility to see this person face trial. This will only inflame conspiracy theory minded people to believe there is a vast conspiracy by the powerful to protect themselves. This is depressing. I’m yet hopeful evidence will be used to bring guilty parties t…

Do you really think there isn't a vast conspiracy by the powerful to protect themselves? It's a bit too obvious to be called a conspiracy.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#129

Post by DanBC »

alkonaut wrote: post #70
DanBC wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Suicide watch" doesn't have a fixed meaning. People on 15 minute observations can and do die by suicide. If someone is at risk and you think obs are going to help (they don't always help, they can make things worse) you need to have them under full time obs. But even then how close does that need to be? Two staff members within arms reach 24 hours of the day, including during eat, bathing, defecating?

I thinking he would have been under some kind of regular watch and in a room with no sharp corners, no cables, no belt, ... It’s going to be really interesting to hear how it happened.

People rip their clothing to form ligatures.

Re: Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York

#130

Post by greggyb »

frozesodium wrote: post #90
moltensodium wrote: post #66

Can we just shut down the Department of Corrections? They are, at best, massively incompetent and negligent, and at worst, massively corrupt and negligent.

So just let all the inmates out into the streets, not because they do absolutely nothing, but because they aren't perfect according to your standards. A stop the world rewrite, HN style, right? Have you ever seen documentaries of prisons in South American countries? Peru has some truly apocalyptic examples of prisons that are just walled yards with dilapidated shelters and no guards. Well, maybe a maximum of watch to…

Your comment was dead. I vouched for it, because I think the point you're making is a valid one.

I'll just note that you come across very combative. HN is intended to be an environment of thoughtful and substantive discussion. I would recommend that you peruse the guidelines[0] for discussion.

Some specific feedback on what I interpret as combative, and what I expect led to the killing downvotes:

The first paragraph is very dismissive and responds to your assumption of the intent of the parent, rather than something they said. I would suggest a clarifying question to understand what shape they expect their suggestion to take, rather than assume a strawman.

The second paragraph is disparaging and suggests that you consider the parent to be ignorant.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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