Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe the age of the anonymous internet is over. It's time for real world identity linked accounts for participating in online conversations. This is necessary for 2 reasons. First, it gives us confidence the people we are speaking to are (probably) not bots. Second, it reduces the need for online censorship beyond what is required by law. So much of the hateful garbage posted online is only posted in the first p…
It is a slippery slope from regulating "hateful garbage" (to be explicit, I interpret this to include speech that is not necessarily hate speech) to censorship of whatever the state determines to be wrongthink. I'll take my anonymity where I can get it, thanks. And as an aside, it's somewhat ironic you post this on a throwaway.
The coming automation of propaganda
51–60 of 93 posts
Re: The coming automation of propaganda
#52I never got around to finishing the Muller Report, but from what I recall and what was made public, Russia's influence campaign was largely traditional and human powered. Here's a bitter pill for everyone. If it turns out that a large fraction of people really can have their opinion changed by bots that wouldn't even pass a Turing test, maybe its time to rethink the idea that everyone gets to vote.
Sorry but this is flat out ridiculous. It's no different from saying "if you supported any of the US wars since the Korean war, you fall for propaganda and it's time to rethink the idea that everyone gets a vote." or "if you fall for advertising" or "if you become a slave to a corporation" or "if you live beyond your means" or etc etc you get my drift. Most people are seriously flawed and easily fooled. You are just…
If you agree that one subset of the population shouldn't get to vote for these reasons, why not a wider subset? In fact why not throw out voting age entirely and make a voting test the only barrier? Would not a direct test of civic knowledge have fewer false positives and false negatives than the blunt tool of an arbitrary age cutoff?
Surely there are degrees of flawed, with some people being very gullible and uninformed and some not. And surely there is some way and some benefit to the rest of us if we disenfranchise the most susceptible to propaganda.
You're right. I don't believe in Democracy. I believe in Epistocracy.
https://www.vox.com/2018/7/23/17581394/against-democracy-boo...
Re: The coming automation of propaganda
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry but this is flat out ridiculous. It's no different from saying "if you supported any of the US wars since the Korean war, you fall for propaganda and it's time to rethink the idea that everyone gets a vote." or "if you fall for advertising" or "if you become a slave to a corporation" or "if you live beyond your means" or etc etc you get my drift. Most people are seriously flawed and easily fooled. You are just…
Why don't kids get to vote? Is it not because they are seriously uninformed and easily influenced? If you agree that one subset of the population shouldn't get to vote for these reasons, why not a wider subset? In fact why not throw out voting age entirely and make a voting test the only barrier? Would not a direct test of civic knowledge have fewer false positives and false negatives than the blunt tool of an arbitr…
Anyway it's already sort of an epistocracy. Those "in the know" have more power and already pretty much run things. Ethics and morals are orthogonal to knowledge.
Re: The coming automation of propaganda
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
The interference really was only the leaked Clinton emails, the facebook propaganda is just typical propaganda nobody really pays attention to unless it's to confirm their own bias, nobody anywhere changes their political opinion because of something they read on facebook. I doubt Russians had any real influence, the question is those leaked emails, which everybody wants to know the provenance. Personally I think it…
Honestly I’m still prettt unconvinced by the emails too, for the simple reason that I’d expect Russian intelligence to have a load of information much more embarrassing than those DNC emails. If they’d shared the 33,000 “deleted” emails off Clinton’s private server, then that would have been something. Also I’m interested in the dog that does not bark — Chinese interference in US politics. Does China prefer one side…
Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute and https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/02/of...
Re: The coming automation of propaganda
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why don't kids get to vote? Is it not because they are seriously uninformed and easily influenced? If you agree that one subset of the population shouldn't get to vote for these reasons, why not a wider subset? In fact why not throw out voting age entirely and make a voting test the only barrier? Would not a direct test of civic knowledge have fewer false positives and false negatives than the blunt tool of an arbitr…
The establishment would just set unfair and arbitrary criteria based on their interests as to who meets the knowledge bar. Anyway it's already sort of an epistocracy. Those "in the know" have more power and already pretty much run things. Ethics and morals are orthogonal to knowledge.
1. There is already a de facto voting test for some fraction of Americans. Its called the citizenship test. And I for one find it offensive to basic reasoning that some people get to skip the test by virtue of being born in the right place. From now on let's include 5 questions chosen at random from the citizenship test on every ballot. In order to prevent the citizenship test itself from being politicized, the pool of questions which might appear on the ballot shall be chosen from the version of the citizenship test which existed before the voting test was added to the ballot.
2. Each candidate on the ballot gets to choose 5 multiple choice questions. The questions must be directly relevant to the powers of the office. Eg you cannot use a question about TV sitcoms from 1950 as a proxy to disenfranchise by age. The veracity of the questions must be a matter of public historical record or a provable logical consequence of facts that are verifiable by public historical record. Eg you cannot ask an opinion question like "Will Obamacare destroy America?" but you can ask "In 2009 did blowhard.com publish an article which concluded that Obamacare will destroy America?". Any news source above some number of readers/viewers can submit their works to the Library of Congress in order to make it qualify as a source for the untampered public historical record. Legislative acts and government commissioned works are automatically part of the public historical record, except in cases that they are classified as state secrets. Eg you cannot use a record of a private conversation of FB as a basis for a public historical record, but you could cite an article from a tiny publication like Rotary Club Monthly (provided it also meets the relevance criteria). Questions must have either a numerical, textual, or boolean answer. The potential answers to questions with numerical answers must differ from each other by at least 10%. The potential answers to questions with textual answers must not have more than 50% of the words in common. Boolean questions can be mapped to numerical or textual questions by asking "which of these statements is true" and then making the question one of the answers. The criteria on numerical and textual questions shall apply to the mapped boolean question. The courts shall approve the veracity and relevance and answer set of questions beforehand, and disagreement with the court decision may be rectified by the usual appeals process.
3. The last part is how to make use of the test results. This is a risky challenge as if there is a simple cutoff score then it is easy to make questions that disenfranchise the majority, and then the minority of the voting minority could always vote to empower itself further by raising the cutoff higher still. Thus there's a potential runaway feedback loop where eventually Democracy is abolished. I have two solutions.
3.1 The scores are aggregated and the bottom 20% are disenfranchised no matter the raw score.
3.2 No one is disenfranchised per se. Instead each vote is weighted by its test score. Each correct answer counts for 1 point and each incorrect answer counts for -1/n where n is the number of wrong choices. A voter that is systematically wrong on every question is probably wrong about their choice for president, so their vote counts negative (which is technically not disenfranchisement). A voter that gets a score near zero is no better than a random guesser thus they add no information to the system and so the system ignores them. A voter that gets every question right knows what they are talking about and so the system gives their voice the most weight.
Edit: Currently editing. I'm adding some after thoughts right now on scenarios where candidates/parties try to attack this and how my proposal is robust to those attacks.
Edit: Demonstrations of robustness.
I think these scenario's are exhaustive but I don't have proof.
0. The people making the test aren't objective (aka the primary criticism of Epistocracy). The citizenship test questions are objective because those questions were made long before my proposed system and the people making them didn't know those questions would be used for this purpose. The questions chosen by the candidates are biased, but they are biased in a way that exactly cancels out so that neither party has an advantage. The possibility of disenfranchising most/all is addressed in section 3.
1. A candidate leaks their answers to their base of voters. This is improbable as keeping everyone quiet would require a voter-base sized conspiracy.
2. A candidate picks questions which pander to biases. Eg "True or False, Democrat XYZ proposes to give free healthcare to illegal immigrants?" The system is robust against this because the question could have actually come from candidate XYZ (who knows he never said such a thing) as a way to lower the opposition voting weight or the question could have come from opposition candidate ABC because he knows his base will think its true. A voter that does not truly know the underlying information is equally likely to increase or decrease the weight of their vote by guessing based on their biases. The only way to have weight in this system is to be an informed voter.
3. A party props up an irrelevant 3rd party in order to pack the test. The first problem with this is that if you prop up another candidate that's similar to your own, you risk splitting your own vote in two. The second problem is that the marginal benefit is 50% of the questions are favorable to you (and 25% neutral) instead of 33% (and 33% neutral). So doing this may tip the weights, but it certainly doesn't guarantee you a win. The marginal benefit can be further reduced by upping the fraction of neutral questions. The third reason this attack doesn't work is either party can do it. There is no asymmetry that one party can take advantage of. At best you get away with it for one election cycle until the other party starts doing it.
Re: The coming automation of propaganda
#56Imagine you go to an online forum and that there is a 99.99% chance that a given message was written by a bot. Imagine further they are sufficiently well written you can't tell from the post itself whether it was made by a bot or not How would people respond to that? Well the obvious consequence is that you have to stop paying attention to random posts. You have to depend on something outside of the forum itself to f…
Re: The coming automation of propaganda
#57Imagine you go to an online forum and that there is a 99.99% chance that a given message was written by a bot. Imagine further they are sufficiently well written you can't tell from the post itself whether it was made by a bot or not How would people respond to that? Well the obvious consequence is that you have to stop paying attention to random posts. You have to depend on something outside of the forum itself to f…
The strategy you describe is for someone who wants the truth. If you instead want your assumptions reinforced, you pay attention to whatever source does that.
Re: The coming automation of propaganda
#58This is the best thing to happen to human information processing since the printing press. The democratization of propaganda will mean that no longer will people be slave to the voices that are loudest. Now, all ideas will fight equally. No longer will Judith Miller be powerful and lead us into war because we will not trust her. Because when everyone is a liar, we will not choose one liar to trust.
Re: The coming automation of propaganda
#59Imagine you go to an online forum and that there is a 99.99% chance that a given message was written by a bot. Imagine further they are sufficiently well written you can't tell from the post itself whether it was made by a bot or not How would people respond to that? Well the obvious consequence is that you have to stop paying attention to random posts. You have to depend on something outside of the forum itself to f…
Here's a hot take: you shouldn't be trusting intenet comments written by humans anyway. If a bot comment contains something you should actually listen to (sources, evidence) then you should listen to it, and if a human comment is just a Reddit-style popular opinion dogpile it is just as bad as a bot comment.
Re: The coming automation of propaganda
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is a slippery slope from regulating "hateful garbage" (to be explicit, I interpret this to include speech that is not necessarily hate speech) to censorship of whatever the state determines to be wrongthink. I'll take my anonymity where I can get it, thanks. And as an aside, it's somewhat ironic you post this on a throwaway.
I agree completely. I'm saying if we remove anonymity we won't need top down censorship.