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The coming automation of propaganda

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Re: The coming automation of propaganda

#31

Post by tryptophan »

mc32 wrote: post #12
basementcat wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's a bitter pill for everyone. If it turns out that a large fraction of people really can have their opinion changed by bots that wouldn't even pass a Turing test, maybe its time to rethink the idea that everyone gets to vote. It isn't clear to me if this is necessarily a bitter pill as much as a possible direction for education reform. If unsophisticated bots are able to efficiently disseminate information to…

I think you're too much an optimist. If some of the most educated people can be anti-vaxx, which is something which affects their families intimately and in the utmost serious way... Moreso that one election cycle. I don't think there is hope for regularly educated people.

> I don't think there is hope for regularly educated people.

Maybe we should start by stopping to conflate being rational and wise with being 'educated'. As if going to college was some sort of panacea for all of our problems.

Lately I've started to think that higher education(particularly undergrad) has more in common with a cargo cult than many would like to admit.

Re: The coming automation of propaganda

#32

Post by alexashka »

jlawson wrote: post #13
IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

I never got around to finishing the Muller Report, but from what I recall and what was made public, Russia's influence campaign was largely traditional and human powered. Here's a bitter pill for everyone. If it turns out that a large fraction of people really can have their opinion changed by bots that wouldn't even pass a Turing test, maybe its time to rethink the idea that everyone gets to vote.

The thing about voting is, the purpose is not to increase the quality of the decision. The practical purpose of voting is simply to avoid civil war. Without voting, a large group of people who are being acted against have no choice but to use force to get what they want. Democracy is a pressure release valve (same with free speech). If I can't use the soapbox I use the ballot box. If I can't use the ballot box, I use…

How'd you arrive at this conclusion?

Wars happen when enough people are willing to sacrifice themselves and others. Leaders sacrifice their own, foot soldiers sacrifice themselves and their enemies.

What makes people willing to sacrifice? An opportunity/threat for a significant shift in quality of life. I don't think democracy, dictatorship or any other form of government or its customs make much of a difference at all.

You can have stable dictatorships and unstable democracies - it's got much more to do with luck and sometimes competence of the people at the top.

Re: The coming automation of propaganda

#33

Post by alexashka »

im3w1l wrote: post #9

Imagine you go to an online forum and that there is a 99.99% chance that a given message was written by a bot. Imagine further they are sufficiently well written you can't tell from the post itself whether it was made by a bot or not How would people respond to that? Well the obvious consequence is that you have to stop paying attention to random posts. You have to depend on something outside of the forum itself to f…

You've described human life since humans were around. Just replace 'bot' with 'human being'.

We're all living in bubbles. It is why travelling is interesting - you get to be in a different bubble, come home and notice the peculiarities of your bubble that you never noticed before.

It is why movies are interesting - we jump into a different bubble, for the same purposes.

There is no problem here, because there is no 'truth' that gets obscured as a result. The human experience is not about uncovering truth, it's just an experience to be had and possibly enjoyed if the universe happens to align for you to do so :)

Re: The coming automation of propaganda

#34

Post by cirgue »

whatshisface wrote: post #27
im3w1l wrote: post #9

Imagine you go to an online forum and that there is a 99.99% chance that a given message was written by a bot. Imagine further they are sufficiently well written you can't tell from the post itself whether it was made by a bot or not How would people respond to that? Well the obvious consequence is that you have to stop paying attention to random posts. You have to depend on something outside of the forum itself to f…

Here's a hot take: you shouldn't be trusting intenet comments written by humans anyway. If a bot comment contains something you should actually listen to (sources, evidence) then you should listen to it, and if a human comment is just a Reddit-style popular opinion dogpile it is just as bad as a bot comment.

> Here's a hot take: you shouldn't be trusting intenet comments written by humans anyway.

I remember an old New Yorker cartoon from the 90s that says 'On the internet, no one knows you're a dog'. Lying has been a fundamental feature of the medium since the beginning. Most of the history of the internet pre-smartphone is people trying to figure out how to combat trolls and spammers. It appears that we are having to learn the same lessons all over again.

There seems to be a kind of collective amnesia about the fact that the majority of content on the internet is written by people that are trying to sell you something, trying to get your attention for their own amusement, or are batshit insane. Frequently it's more than one of these things.

Re: The coming automation of propaganda

#35

Post by UnpossibleJim »

GuiA wrote: post #14
im3w1l wrote: post #9

Imagine you go to an online forum and that there is a 99.99% chance that a given message was written by a bot. Imagine further they are sufficiently well written you can't tell from the post itself whether it was made by a bot or not How would people respond to that? Well the obvious consequence is that you have to stop paying attention to random posts. You have to depend on something outside of the forum itself to f…

What you are describing is already ongoing. Many comments in eg widely shared Facebook political posts are likely to be posted by bots, or people paid to be representing a certain agenda (ie human bots). And in that light I disagree with your “obvious consequence” that people will stop paying attention to forum posts, because we know that people do engage with trolls/bots on Twitter/Facebook/etc. People are also fine…

They have the means, they just don't have the discipline, I think. We don't really teach discipline, critical thinking or money management in public schools; all of which are necessary for adult life. The kaleidoscope of chaos is hard to turn your eyes from, but it's worth doing if you set your mind to it.

Re: The coming automation of propaganda

#36

Post by scarejunba »

This is the best thing to happen to human information processing since the printing press. The democratization of propaganda will mean that no longer will people be slave to the voices that are loudest. Now, all ideas will fight equally.

No longer will Judith Miller be powerful and lead us into war because we will not trust her. Because when everyone is a liar, we will not choose one liar to trust.

Re: The coming automation of propaganda

#37

Post by shadowbanme »

hackermailman wrote: post #30
olivermarks wrote: post #6

'As U.S. policymakers remain indecisive over how to prevent a repeat of the 2016 election interference' Was this ever proven? all I ever heard about was conspiracy theories around 100k of Facebook ads and Cambridge Analytica being accused of various things. Nothing concrete was ever seriously discussed and the Mueller team findings were inconclusive.

The interference really was only the leaked Clinton emails, the facebook propaganda is just typical propaganda nobody really pays attention to unless it's to confirm their own bias, nobody anywhere changes their political opinion because of something they read on facebook. I doubt Russians had any real influence, the question is those leaked emails, which everybody wants to know the provenance. Personally I think it…

Honestly I’m still prettt unconvinced by the emails too, for the simple reason that I’d expect Russian intelligence to have a load of information much more embarrassing than those DNC emails. If they’d shared the 33,000 “deleted” emails off Clinton’s private server, then that would have been something.

Also I’m interested in the dog that does not bark — Chinese interference in US politics. Does China prefer one side to the other? Which one? What are they doing about it?

Re: The coming automation of propaganda

#38

Post by jointpdf »

Recommended reading on this subject from RAND: https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html

It covers the underlying strategy of Russian disinformation operations and why/how it works. Mind you this is from 2016, so prior to the Mueller investigation. If nothing else, read the blurbs in the text boxes.

Re: The coming automation of propaganda

#39

Post by riffic »

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #25
im3w1l wrote: post #9

Imagine you go to an online forum and that there is a 99.99% chance that a given message was written by a bot. Imagine further they are sufficiently well written you can't tell from the post itself whether it was made by a bot or not How would people respond to that? Well the obvious consequence is that you have to stop paying attention to random posts. You have to depend on something outside of the forum itself to f…

Someone called Neal Stephenson imagined that to perfection in the first third of [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall;_or,_Dodge_in_Hell Amusing to read.

>Someone called Neal Stephenson

This is such an interesting way to refer to an author.

Re: The coming automation of propaganda

#40

Post by colordrops »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

I never got around to finishing the Muller Report, but from what I recall and what was made public, Russia's influence campaign was largely traditional and human powered. Here's a bitter pill for everyone. If it turns out that a large fraction of people really can have their opinion changed by bots that wouldn't even pass a Turing test, maybe its time to rethink the idea that everyone gets to vote.

Sorry but this is flat out ridiculous. It's no different from saying "if you supported any of the US wars since the Korean war, you fall for propaganda and it's time to rethink the idea that everyone gets a vote." or "if you fall for advertising" or "if you become a slave to a corporation" or "if you live beyond your means" or etc etc you get my drift. Most people are seriously flawed and easily fooled. You are just saying that you don't believe in democracy.
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