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Who Owns Huawei?

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Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#51

Post by deepVoid »

georgeecollins wrote: post #24
deepVoid wrote: post #16

> We know nothing about the internal governance procedures of the trade union committee. > We do not know who the committee members or other trade union leaders are, or how they are selected. > Given the public nature of trade unions in China, if the ownership stake of the trade union committee is genuine, and if the trade union and its committee function as trade unions generally function in China, then Huawei may b…

I disagree. I think you are used to Western Companies where the default is private ownership. All major Chinese companies began as state owned enterprises, and it is usually necessary to get investment from one to get a charter. So ostensibly private companies have a big state investment. Plus a trade union committee implies a government structure.

It is not true that all major Chinese companies began as state-owned enterprises. Alibaba, Tencent, Baidu etc. are all private. They were started by their founders and funded by VC money. For instance, Alibaba was started by Jack Ma and 17 others. It is privately-owned by shareholders, none of which is state or government[1]. For some other industries such as banks, railway, oil etc., it is different. They are mostly state-owned. But tech is not one of them.

[1] https://www.marketscreener.com/ALIBABA-GROUP-HOLDING-1791667...

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#53

Post by coldtea »

outside1234 wrote: post #6
intricatedetail wrote: post #4

[flagged]

Maybe in France, but not in the US.

Yes, in the US the companies own the ruling parties.

"What's good for General Motors is good for the country" and everything... (yeah, he said it the other way round. The practice was still coporate overlords first, country second, though of course today that little corporatism would seem quaint).

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#54

Post by jlawson »

tokai wrote: post #34
basq wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen the term 'market socialism' used when describing China's system.

Market socialism, as fare as I'm aware, is defined by social ownership of the means of production. State capitalism would definitely be more appropriate to describe China. Especially in the marxist sense of the term. edit: I spoke with a Chinese student once, whom preferred the term dictatorial capitalism.

>social ownership of the means of production

Slightly off topic but can you clarify what 'social ownership' means, exactly? I've been trying to figure this out for a few weeks now. I just ask since you seem to know.

Wikipedia says, "The two major forms of social ownership are society-wide public ownership and cooperative ownership." What's the practical difference between 'society-wide public ownership' and government ownership? The government is supposed to represent the people.

What's the practical difference between 'cooperative ownership' and corporate ownership? A corporation is just a group of shareholders, often including millions of individuals and employees of the company.

e.g. In America the government owns parkland, and people can use it. Is that 'social ownership' of the parkland? Or 'government ownership'? What's the difference?

e.g. In the West, many corporations are owned by millions of shareholders. Sometimes the majority of ownership is ultimately from small shareholders, largely through pension funds. Is that 'social ownership' or 'corporate ownership'? What's the difference?

What are some existing, real, sustained examples of 'social ownership' in real history?

I feel like this term is either super general and not particularly meaningful, or it's one of those cases where the definition changes according to the argumentative needs of the moment, or it's just a euphimism for government control without a practical difference.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#55

Post by kccqzy »

ordinaryradical wrote: post #5

The most informative comment I’ve heard about Chinese business is that one needs to take the western conception of state / military / corporation and chuck them out the window. In essence these are all descriptive functions of the same entity in China, and any apparent separation is just that—apparent. I know some may reply that, for example, Lockheed effectively lives at this nexus also. It’s a good argument, and pr…

Bigger corporations are indeed highly influenced if not outright owned by the state. But smaller businesses like these mom-and-pop shops and young startups certainly are not.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#56

Post by wolco »

coldtea wrote: post #50
georgeecollins wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think you are used to Western Companies where the default is private ownership. All major Chinese companies began as state owned enterprises, and it is usually necessary to get investment from one to get a charter. So ostensibly private companies have a big state investment. Plus a trade union committee implies a government structure.

> All major Chinese companies began as state owned enterprises How come there are so many Chinese startup success stories then? Those weren't "major companies" when they began...

They are funded by the state indirectly.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#57

Post by all_usernames »

smacktoward wrote: post #23

I've heard a similar observation phrased slightly differently to describe Russia. If you're looking at a large Russian company, it goes, you're by definition looking at a company that has come to some kind of accommodation with the state -- because if they hadn't, the state would never have permitted them to get large.

Convince me this is any different in America.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#58

Post by eschaton »

jewelry wrote: post #44
PenguinCoder wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one absolutely put Tencent on the same level. One is software and user espionage and the other is hardware. Same coin.

As a Chinese lived in mainland China for 20 years, gotta say all you guys are overestimating the authoritarian.

Nah. There are literally historical and current events you’re not allowed to talk about in China without being arrested and charged with a crime or even disappeared. That’s not an overestimation, that’s the very definition of authoritarian.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#59

Post by mycall »

jewelry wrote: post #44
PenguinCoder wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one absolutely put Tencent on the same level. One is software and user espionage and the other is hardware. Same coin.

As a Chinese lived in mainland China for 20 years, gotta say all you guys are overestimating the authoritarian.

WeChat has authoritarian roots.

Re: Who Owns Huawei?

#60

Post by deepVoid »

davidu wrote: post #22
deepVoid wrote: post #16

> We know nothing about the internal governance procedures of the trade union committee. > We do not know who the committee members or other trade union leaders are, or how they are selected. > Given the public nature of trade unions in China, if the ownership stake of the trade union committee is genuine, and if the trade union and its committee function as trade unions generally function in China, then Huawei may b…

Regardless of the legal ownership structure (I believe the SSRN perspective), it is effectively "state directed when needed." That's not a xenophobic perspective, that's a reality of being a company in China and it'd be hard for someone to push back on that based on the last 20 years of game film for Internet related businesses in China.

Every company is "state directed when needed", to some degree. For instance, Google is not allowed to provide Android to Huawei (it is withheld now), even if there is no clear evidence that Huawei threatens national security. Admittedly, it would be harder for Huawei to push back on government directions. However, that still does not make Huawei "state-owned" or "state-directed" in the common sense.
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