Live data from Hacker News

Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

bbc.co.uk

141–150 of 239 posts

Re: Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

#141
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a problem with GDPR. This is a problem with organizations (companies and governments) treating publicly data as private keys.

Moreover, it's a problem with the current state of "identity" as a whole. Most of the data received in the article - passports, addresses, phone numbers, credit cards - does not change very often. Some documents expire, but even then it could be valid for another 3 - 10 years. We need to move to a system that allows rapid expiry of PII data. Then it will not matter if someone is able to social engineer this data from…

I've heard that in Japan, stamping with your personal stamp is accepted (and perhaps sometimes even required?). They have made electronic gadgets that store their stamps as images so that they can directly sign (stamp) an electronic document (using a specific input device).

I think we should have something like this, but with a personal certificate instead of an image. Of course I guess it requires some logistics (lost/stolen stamps, expiration dates, perhaps the stamp should be activated with fingerprints...).

Re: Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it sounds a bit dubious that you can both have a valid reason for keeping personal information about someone and not have a valid way of verifying that you are actually communicating with them. What sort of agreement can you enter with someone if you don't know who they are?

What sort of agreement can you enter with someone if you don't know who they are? Have you ever walked into a shop, bought some chocolate with cash, and walked out? There you go, legally binding contract of sale, yet the seller has no idea who the buyer was.

Oh all right, I grant you can enter into agreements that the immediately terminate without any need to establish identity.

I was hoever not making an argument by induction, so leaving out the trivial case is not crucial to it.

Re: Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

#143
post #2

This is pretty appalling, really: "Overall, of the 83 firms known to have held data... 24% supplied personal information without verifying the requester's identity." Want someone else's personal data? No need to "hack into" any systems; just ask for it!

Verifying identity is a very hard problem.

Re: Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

#144
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there is some weird subtext to the argument, that for some reason account access shouldn't count as secure verification? I guess this all hinges on the idea that to implement GDPR all you need to do is set up an email adress and handle all requests manually, only to then discover that: actually, identity management via plaintext email is a bit tricky.

If someone loses their password and asks for their data under the GDPR it's an open question whether the site can simply say "sorry, there's no longer any way for us to verify you are who you say you are".

Is it? What paragraph makes it ambigious whether a company needs to do more than reasonable efforts establish if a request is legitimate?

Re: Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

#145
post #19

This is a reflection of the fact that we have no good way for someone to digitally prove their identity. Some countries are getting close-ish - Denmark's NemID system, for example, is used by a lot of financial institutions. However, there remains no easy way to make ad-hoc verifiable statements like 'I am John Smith and I authorise you to send this data to xyz@example.org'. Governments, please solve this problem! Es…

> This is a reflection of the fact that we have no good way for someone to digitally prove their identity.

Centralized identity isn't a solution, it's the problem. Once you implement something like that, it requires everyone to track everything using it in order for it to be used to authenticate access to the information. Which means everybody has to store the ID number as a field in every database and it becomes a de facto primary key that allows all information to be correlated by every blackhat that compromises more than one data set.

Meanwhile there will be the "just make it work" people who are bad at security, who will do whatever is necessary to compromise their own security because the attacker told them to. And then we would then be giving attackers the capacity to take over their entire lives instead of only one relationship with one entity.

Moreover, the scope of the damage if someone were to compromise the central identity system in general rather than only for a specific person is horrifying. It would become a single point of compromise for the whole country. And the worst kind on top of that, because everything would hook into it which would cause it to become ossified and difficult to update. If the system was then publicly compromised, how long does it take for everyone everywhere to update every piece of code to use the replacement? Which thing do you do in the meantime, continue using the compromised system as all hell breaks loose, or shut down your entire country?

There is a better solution. If you have an account with someone, you make requests by authenticating in the same way you do with your account. And if you don't have an account, you should be able to request deletion of the data associated with e.g. your IP address, but not request to download it -- because there is no way to to verify your identity for that. Even with centralized ID an IP address can be used by multiple people who shouldn't be able to give consent for one another and may not be mutually distinguishable by the party receiving the request, and the same for most other global data (e.g. many people share full names with other people). The only way to make centralized ID work in that context is to tag everything with it to begin with, compromising all anonymity and pseudonymity -- which can't possibly be the right trade off for what is supposed to be privacy legislation.

Re: Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the intended goals of GDPR is to reduce the processing of personal data - not only that the companies should do it differently, but that at least half of the companies who currently have my data really shouldn't have it in the first place. It depends on the circumstances of each scenario, but it would be completely reasonable if large numbers of smallish companies acknowledge that they lack the capacity to han…

It depends on the circumstances of each scenario, but it would be completely reasonable if large numbers of smallish companies acknowledge that they lack the capacity to handle personal data properly and the recommended strategy for GDPR compliance is that they should simply stop requesting and storing that data. That's not a reasonable strategy at all. Any company doing more than selling basic goods in person for ca…

"Any company doing more than selling basic goods in person for cash probably needs to process some level of personal data for legitimate reasons." is a bit tricky, and I'm not certain that it's true. I'd say that many common business processes use personal data for reasons of tradition, but don't really need it.

1) "Selling for cash" - accepting credit cards and wire transfers (paying by check isn't really a thing in most of EU) doesn't necessarily require you to store PII. Yes, you could get cardholder name, but perhaps you shouldn't; just as you (most likely, for PCI DSS reasons) don't handle CC numbers but delegate it to e.g. some merchant gateway service, if you also delegate CC fraud analysis to them, then you don't need any details about the transcaction beyond the amount and ID.

2) "Selling in person" - delivery is tricky, but you can reduce the exposure a lot by having the information be transient. If you're delivering pizza, then you don't need to store every order's phone number and address forever; and if you don't store the delivery data beyond the delivery, then if someone requests all the data you have on them, then you can honestly say "nothing".

etc. Of course, details matter, and yes, that definitely don't fit all cases, but it's my feeling that they work in half the cases where companies had my data.

Re: Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

#147
post #19

This is a reflection of the fact that we have no good way for someone to digitally prove their identity. Some countries are getting close-ish - Denmark's NemID system, for example, is used by a lot of financial institutions. However, there remains no easy way to make ad-hoc verifiable statements like 'I am John Smith and I authorise you to send this data to xyz@example.org'. Governments, please solve this problem! Es…

The only way to do what most people want here is to bake this digital identity into humans, which is beyond our present technology and also feels potentially rather like a recipe for authoritarianism. For one thing, if you can lose it, people will. They'll destroy them on purpose, they'll be stolen by crooks, they will forget them at airports or in hotel safes. That's not a problem for baked in things, people don't leave their hearts behind (outside of Country songs) or (outside of maybe China) get them stolen by crooks but any conceivable device, card, key, or document will have this problem.

Greg Egan's "Orphanogensis" (http://www.gregegan.net/DIASPORA/01/Orphanogenesis.html a short story setting up the protagonist for his novel "Diaspora") describes making Polis Citizens (people who exist only as software, the other branches of humanity have given themselves bodies suitable for long term existence in space, the Gleisner Robots, or given up on consciousness altogether, the Dream Apes) with a cypherclerk, a component that does public key crypto. Once the system achieves confidence that the process of making a new citizen has been successful and has produced a conscious person, the cypherclerk is initialised and the new citizen has a unique and impossible to fake proof of ID. This plays no major role in the story, it's just there because presumably Greg agrees with you that it'd sure be convenient if there was actually digital ID. But there isn't.

Here's a central conflict: I would like to be able to prove that I'm who I say I am, but without being stuck with that identity. This makes the identity disclaimable. You will find plenty of people who feel the same way, and some of them have very concrete practical reasons (e.g. people with stalkers or who ratted on a crime boss). But for a bunch of things people, and especially governments want to do with a digital ID that's no good.

A disclaimable ID can work for a driving license. Barry Shitpeas is licensed to drive an HGV, you can either prove you're Barry Shitpeas, or you can get a new license to drive the HGV with the identity you do want to use.

But if Barry drink drives, taking away his license, knowing he can just get a new one as Jerry Poocabbage tomorrow, well that's a rubbish outcome, isn't it? We want a way to _stop_ Barry from driving even if he changes identity. And we can't do that with disclaimable ID.

Re: Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

#148
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there is some weird subtext to the argument, that for some reason account access shouldn't count as secure verification? I guess this all hinges on the idea that to implement GDPR all you need to do is set up an email adress and handle all requests manually, only to then discover that: actually, identity management via plaintext email is a bit tricky.

If someone loses their password and asks for their data under the GDPR it's an open question whether the site can simply say "sorry, there's no longer any way for us to verify you are who you say you are".

Ah, that's actually simple - the answer depends on whether that statement is true or not.

In the abovementioned case where only name (which is not unique) and password and sexual orientation is stored, and literally nothing else, you can say "sorry, we took all reasonable measures to verify your identity, and couldn't" because that's how it is.

However, if google or paypal or someone else who stores much more data says "sorry, there's no longer any way for us to verify you are who you say you are", then that's a lie (easily verifiable by the regulator), and that's not acceptable.

Re: Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

#149
GDPR is not a perfect law, but I think it's a great leverage to use when negotiating against US companies if you're a EU country.

I mean at some point, EU countries will get tired of the US going a little too far. It's about being able to negotiate, and with the digital age and the massive ad market, it only makes sense for the EU to protect itself after brexit and the cambridge analytica stories.

Re: Black Hat: GDPR privacy law exploited to reveal personal data

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover, it's a problem with the current state of "identity" as a whole. Most of the data received in the article - passports, addresses, phone numbers, credit cards - does not change very often. Some documents expire, but even then it could be valid for another 3 - 10 years. We need to move to a system that allows rapid expiry of PII data. Then it will not matter if someone is able to social engineer this data from…

I've heard that in Japan, stamping with your personal stamp is accepted (and perhaps sometimes even required?). They have made electronic gadgets that store their stamps as images so that they can directly sign (stamp) an electronic document (using a specific input device). I think we should have something like this, but with a personal certificate instead of an image. Of course I guess it requires some logistics (lo…

See the examples below in discussion with personal certificates and signing keys embedded in gov't ID chipcards of certain European countries, Estonia has this for more than a decade already and now many more countries have something like this.
Post reply on HN