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The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

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Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#591
post #242

Has anyone ever seen an online community (with more than a handful of users) that focuses on more than cute puppy pictures and that is not described as "toxic" by "critics"? I'd say that HN does a great job at avoiding that. The article is titled "moderating hacker news" but fails to describe just how good a job the moderators and owners are doing. The moderators for moderation, and the owners for (as I perceive it)…

It's not up to The New Yorker to give praise to moderators or owners. That's inserting bias. It's up to the readers (us) to determine whether the moderators are doing a good job.

> That's inserting bias.

Are you implying that this article was trying to be bias-free? The author spent entire paragraphs just cherry-picking "toxic" things that have been said on HN to make discussion here look bad.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#592
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's wrong with it? Well, it's certainly going to cause many people to discount your opinion because they presume you have an racist agenda. It looks like a username consciously chosen to create offense while being plausibly deniable. Please be cautious of causing harm to a community for sake of social commentary. Needlessly creating offense is a negative, but maybe you can figure out how to use the dissonance to…

your username is pretty clearly a sexist reference too, isn't it? Don't deny it, you've already offended me.

I chose it because it was first initial - last name, although I did have a tall German speaking friend who would always say "Nicht lang, aber ganz kurz" every time he'd see me. It took me a while to figure out what he meant. So depending on what you are into, maybe.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The New Yorker or New York Times dances around topics, giving random human interest tidbits or anecdotes and never gets to the heart of any discussion. It's all fluff. HackerNews comments in general are concise and to the point. Logical, well-reasoned arguments aren't a part of modern politics or journalism so to this writer it seems like some curious fantasy world. Luckily new online media like Young Turks,…

I would agree with you but think your examples are poor. Rogan generally lets his guests just talk about what they want to talk about without questioning them. Ben Shapiro sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but tends to pick debates with college students. Shapiro is full of platitudes, something which you seem to criticize the New York Times and New Yorker about interestingly. All of the people you mention…

> Rogan generally lets his guests just talk about what they want to talk about without questioning them.

I actually love that: Rogan gives you the rare chance to observe his guests in a somewhat relaxed environment, at least more relaxed than the endless battlefields of Twitter, and slightly less fake than magazine interviews. If anything, I wish he would insert fewer of his own opinion.

I feel that questioning and defending opinions works much better in text form, anyway. I keep looking for good, honest debates on video, but usually it's just people trying to pwn each other with eloquence, with no time for fact-checks.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#594
post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is filled with Silicon valley nonsense, tropes, and hot garbage. But the things you describe are why I keep coming back. There's always something new to learn.

If I ever start another blog, would you mind if I titled it Nonsense, Tropes, and Hot Garbage ?

I encourage it.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#595
post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate change is discussed a great deal on HN these days; probably more than any other topic: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story... Any topic this widespread is going to produce many copycat and follow…

Do you have no comment about the censuring you do of topics like Russian election hacking? To me that is the most violating of your duty, that you preemptively reduce conversation on particular topics. You replied in depth to every part of my post except that part. Please explain why you have filters on conversation topics but pretend to be impartial moderators. Does HN have an automatic mechanism to reduce the visib…

I focused on climate change because that is the topic that has the most intensity on HN at the moment. This is a matter of triage. It's incredibly costly in time and energy to write detailed answers like this. We can't do that about everything. If we tried, it would peg us at 100% and starve the rest of the site.

No, HN does not "have an automatic mechanism to reduce the visibility on stories relating to Russia's physical and digital attacks on American democracy". Those issues have received tons of discussion on Hacker News, just like climate change has, just not as recently. If you're talking about something I actually said as opposed to simply making things up, I'd like to see a link—whatever I did say, I wouldn't have put it that way.

That doesn't mean we don't have automated penalties, a.k.a. write software to do things on the site. We rely on software because it would be impossible to do this job without it. There's a lot of software; it does a lot of things. One thing it does is downweight classic flamewar topics. That includes nationalistic flamewars (edit: and partisan flamewars), which there were a lot of about Russia in the last couple years, though the storm of that has shifted to China in recent months. If you're alluding to something I actually said, I imagine that's what it related to.

If you're shocked that some submissions are downweighted by HN software, you may need to realize that this site is curated and has never pretended otherwise. Some submissions are even killed by software outright. The downweights I mentioned are mild and have plenty of opportunity to get overridden, whether by software or by moderators; in fact we do that all the time when we see a substantive story being affected by them. That's one reason why all the topics you're complaining about being suppressed have actually received major, regular discussions on Hacker News.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#596
> N-gate, a satirical Web site with the slogan “We can’t both be right” (a NAND gate is a kind of logic gate that only outputs “false” if all of its inputs read “true”), offers a weekly summary of Hacker News discussions, dubbed “webshit weekly.”

I always find these critics a little funny. It's like the classic Beatles joke about record burners: They're still buying the record. If you're writing weekly newsletter about how Hacker News sucks, you're still reading Hacker News every week.

Seems like every internet community has some form of built in hatred of itself as a gestalt. Redditors bemoan how much the "hivemind" sucks. There's endless Facebook posts about how Facebook is so terrible.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#597
post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But as this article shows, abdicating the responsibility by keeping the topics sterile is similarly suspect, in the sense of fiddling while Rome burns. I believe a willingness to confront the ugly sides of technology with some courage of conviction would eventually be recognised, even if it may occasionally involve a bit of a mess. Absolutely true. The failure of mods (and even pg?) to recognize this is the single…

Nobody's "keeping the topics sterile". Threads about "the ugly sides of technology" are common on Hacker News. Of the topics you mention, surveillance is frequently and massively discussed; as for Palantir, https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story... . You may feel it's not enough, but nothing is ever enough: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... .

You have focused on the stories being allowed on HN. My issue is with the aggressive throttling and shadow banning of users who post polite comments in support of unpopular* views (rather than just letting the upvote/downvote system do its job).

I'm sure being a mod on HN is difficult, but by punishing users with throttling without explanation is not only rude, it creates the wrong incentive, turning HN into a game of avoiding the throttle bully rather than just participating in discussions with an open heart and mind.

Please add features to make moderation decisions more transparent to the victim and also to the rest of the HN community, so that we can all have more trust in what is going on.

* by unpopular I do not mean abhorrent, racist, or other such content, I mean views that do not fit into the normal left vs right political spectrum or which may require more than one comment to articulate to someone who lacks the required background.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#598
post #305

Call me cynical but that piece reads like an ad. Normally you see this sort of articles when an entity is trying to raise it's profile for some reason. Maybe a funding round coming up, asset sale, IPO, etc.

I didn't think it was very ad-like. If Anna Wiener were trying to boost the profile of HN then she probably wouldn't have included all those random examples of "toxic" comments and political discussions that she disagrees with.

It was certainly positive toward the moderators, but not the site as a whole.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#599
post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have no comment about the censuring you do of topics like Russian election hacking? To me that is the most violating of your duty, that you preemptively reduce conversation on particular topics. You replied in depth to every part of my post except that part. Please explain why you have filters on conversation topics but pretend to be impartial moderators. Does HN have an automatic mechanism to reduce the visib…

I focused on climate change because that is the topic that has the most intensity on HN at the moment. This is a matter of triage. It's incredibly costly in time and energy to write detailed answers like this. We can't do that about everything. If we tried, it would peg us at 100% and starve the rest of the site. No, HN does not "have an automatic mechanism to reduce the visibility on stories relating to Russia's phy…

> If you're talking about something I actually said as opposed to simply making things up, I'd like to see a link

Sure, here you go. I would never "make things up" and lie on HN, that's despicable and I do not appreciate being accused of such trash by the HN mods.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20192283

That is a well researched story on the NYTimes on an underreported topic that is mostly technological in nature. You claim it got a "software penalty" as opposed to being flagged.

I cannot imagine any interpretation other than what I described, that there is an automatic penalty applied to posts that you personally don't like or have personal expectations from outside of the community's voice.

How am I to interpret your comments without assuming that you have software that flags content and penalizes it by topic when you state that the software penalty happened "because this topic is unfortunately more likely to lead nationalistic flamewar"

I do not understand.

Edit: I cannot see these posts without being logged in as me. Have you hidden this particular discussion from public view? Am I shadowbanned? For what purpose?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#600
post #88

This article does seem to get at the essence of HN, appreciative of dang and sctb's humanity while not ignoring the problems. Personally, I would actually consider it an excellent demonstration of the fallibility of one of HN's favourite tropes, Gell-Mann amnesia. If there's one critique that I believe is paramount it's that HN has, due to its readership, an ethical obligation that goes beyond making discussions all…

... the HN readership is in a position of power, and shouldn't routinely be spared the anguish of being reminded of their responsibility. What kind of power do you think we have? We can't even convince our friends and family to stay the fuck off of Facebook. Aside from the fact that some people from our industry have a shitton of money I don't see us having any kind of social influence.

People like us, we are the trendsetters online. It won't be quick, but Facebook has signed its own death warrant.
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