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China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

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Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#111

Post by throw0101a »

numakerg wrote: post #50
throw0101a wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only question is how they managed to fall so low that they weren't a competitive superpower. Well, first of all, they had two thousand years autocratic Imperial rule. This was overthrown in 1912, but then came the Japanese invasion, then WW2, then a civil war. The civil war ended up being won by a somewhat anti-intellectual group of people (the Communists) who had all sort of economic backwards programs (not to…

>The real question is: why were the Europeans the only ones to embrace it. I haven't read Huff's book so here's my stab in the dark. Europe has a lot of mainland coastline and the Mediterranean, which favors the formation of many small nation states and trans-Mediterranean trade. Among a large number of diverse and competing states, political, military and social ideas are more likely to be employed somewhere, and if…

Another interesting observation there was much more of a Church-State separation in Christianity compared to many other belief systems:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar

Certainly the (Catholic) Church had a lot of temporal power, especially in the Papal States, but sovereignty was a bigger thing than in Imperial China or Muslim conquests or caliphs.

Huff also cites the legal framework (amongst other factors): the independence of the judiciary (even from the Church, even though clergy sometimes acted as judges) and a focus on a documented due process acted as checks on runaway power.

The Medieval Origins of the Legal Profession by Brundage is also an interesting read:

* https://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo56...

It even covers Roman law, and how it managed to be salvaged (to an extent) and be used as a base for European law, especially starting in the 1200s.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#112

Post by dragonsh »

dragonelite wrote: post #105
dragonsh wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After world war II, Japan and Germany did wonders again due to scientific temperament, they were destroyed worse than Indian colonial rule. Japan and in earlier period five forces colonized parts of China. Korea from 1910-45 as Japan colony still developed after world war II due to science. Indeed Nehru (first govt head of free India) put the foundations of scientific thinking in India. Built great institutions and f…

Japan and Germany were already industrialized countries. Why do you think the Japanese thought they could attack and hopefully hold China. You can blow up the cities and factories but institutionalized knowledge makes it easier to start again, especially when the US gives you bags of money.

I hope you read history and cost of war those societies paid. Don't undermine the hardwork and scientific temperament of the people who help it to progress and develop. Indeed the same story is replicated by Korea, China. China went through much worse in 1960's cultural revolution when people don't have enough food and whole generation was send to farms not to study, due to unscientific thinking.

Also US don't give bags of money to anyone, indeed it needs bags of money from others on the contrary. Please read about debt levels and treasury bonds. USA developed because of its university and scientific temperament. Hopefully it continues as it is good for everyone.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#113

Post by dragonsh »

alienallys wrote: post #107
hungryhobo wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As did China. And I didn't think 'India needs more scientific temperament to come out of its religious tribal mentality and need more science education.' is racism at all

Yes it's not racism but Hinduphobia. And since author seems to attach this Hinduphobia with development of India and current state of poverty, he's indirectly saying Hinduism is the cause; which is what our British colonizers used to say. So it's not racism but Imperialism laced with Hinduphobia.

You are too sensitive don't know from where you got religion=Hinduism only.

My comments were based on what I have read from reputed journalists. Probably you are one of those people I read about who are staunch supporter of current administration who convert every talk into Hinduism. Using illogical unscientific logic to come up with weird conclusions.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#114

Post by RomanBob »

Barrin92 wrote: post #82
RomanBob wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism. Any society with majority chinese population (singapore, taiwan, hong kong) that has a free market is a modern developed country. China stuck behind for 50 years, and is now catching up.

There are plenty of countries without any communist history that are in much worse shape than either China or Russia, so this can hardly be a sufficient explanation.

It is sufficient for the case of china.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#115

Post by throw0101a »

roboys wrote: post #100
anonu wrote: post #89

Western society rose to prominence because of a few values: respect for property rights, intellectual property and personal freedom. America is far from perfect but was based on these ideals. It's maybe a simplistic view of the world and East vs West... But the recent HK protests can be rationalized through this lens. I think respect for intellectual property and human rights will determine whether China continues it…

It's actually a lot simpler, stealing gold works. It's old fashioned but they extracted $45 trillion from India alone, think about how much was taken from Africa and China....also at it's peak opium deals in China accounted for 35% of the UK's GDP (expect similar numbers in the US)... Explanations of western growth that exclude economic history seem suspicious to me, a lot of the true story & criminality is hidden in…

> It's actually a lot simpler, stealing gold works.

Except how did the West get into a position of being more powerful than the rest of the world?

Around 1600, Western countries, the Ottomans, Mughal-ruled India, and Imperial China weren't too different in development (the non-Euro folks could actually have been considered more developed). By the late-1700s / early-1800s the Europeans were steamrolling over everyone.

What changed in those ~150 years?

A good book on the topic is Intellectual Curiosity and the Scientific Revolution by Toby Huff:

* https://www.cambridge.org/9780521170529

It explores an interesting accidental historical experiment: the telescope was invented in 1608 in the Netherlands, and in the next ~20 years had spread to most of the world's major civilizations. What various cultures did with it (or not) explains why Europe took off.

See also The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West by the same author:

* https://www.cambridge.org/9781107130210

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#116

Post by throw0101a »

alienallys wrote: post #96
dragonsh wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western societies rise to prominence is due to acceptance of scientific temperament with a balanced moral view looking beyond religion and tribal mentality. They challenged the established religious groups and tribal rules. Traveled across oceans and built global trade. Property rights and all you described are just means which are just subservient not the main reason. China is moving forward due to the same scientif…

Western countries rose to prominence because they were built on Slaves, Colonies and Industrial revolution which was byproduct of World Wars. The India you're talking is India who got depleted, sucked, trampled country after 2 centuries of British hegemony. Stop your illogical and thinly vieled racism to justify why countries like India are the way they are like.

> The India you're talking is India who got depleted, sucked, trampled country after 2 centuries of British hegemony.

[Copy-paste from another reply.]

Except how did the West get into a position of being more powerful than the rest of the world?

Around 1600, the various Western countries, the Ottomans, Mughal-ruled India, and Imperial China weren't too different in development (the non-Euro folks could actually have been considered more developed). By the late-1700s / early-1800s the Europeans were steamrolling over everyone.

What changed in those ~150 years?

A good book on the topic is Intellectual Curiosity and the Scientific Revolution by Toby Huff:

* https://www.cambridge.org/9780521170529

It explores an interesting accidental historical experiment: the telescope was invented in 1608 in the Netherlands, and in the next ~20 years had spread to most of the world's major civilizations. What various cultures did with it (or not) explains why Europe took off.

See also The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West by the same author:

* https://www.cambridge.org/9781107130210

Yes, the Europeans did a whole bunch of awful things: but what gave them the power to do so?

Europe kept developing after 1600; not-Europe stayed the same/stagnated in the same time period. For example: everyone's star counts were the same (~2300) using the naked eye up to 1600, but only the Europeans' increased afterward even though the Europeans gave the Indians and Chineses telescope and taught them how to make more.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#117

Post by oblio »

roboys wrote: post #103
pmontra wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. But Japan is an example of an Asian country that forced itself to assimilate the technology and habits of the West. They ended up invading China before WW2, last of a long list of countries.

Japan attacked China with the blessing of Teddy Roosevelt, a secret 1905 treaty allowed Japan to expand into Asia without push back from the US. Pearl harbor happened because we reneged on this "secret treaty" by backing China 30 years later in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War... we reneged because congress had no clue the treaty existed. Side note: Is Teddy Roosevelt the reason we got dragged into WW2? Yes.

> Side note: Is Teddy Roosevelt the reason we got dragged into WW2? Yes.

This is the same fallacy as the UK "being dragged into WW1 and WW2". You just needed an excuse for joining. You joined because you couldn't accept Japan or Germany becoming hegemons of their regions. An united Europe or East Asia can challenge American supremacy.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#118

Post by alienallys »

dragonsh wrote: post #113
alienallys wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it's not racism but Hinduphobia. And since author seems to attach this Hinduphobia with development of India and current state of poverty, he's indirectly saying Hinduism is the cause; which is what our British colonizers used to say. So it's not racism but Imperialism laced with Hinduphobia.

You are too sensitive don't know from where you got religion=Hinduism only. My comments were based on what I have read from reputed journalists. Probably you are one of those people I read about who are staunch supporter of current administration who convert every talk into Hinduism. Using illogical unscientific logic to come up with weird conclusions.

"Reputed journalists" You're what I thought, a closet elitist who thinks rest of the masses are dumb just because they don't agree with you, and try to label abusing the power journalism. In a sense you're part of psuedo-intellectual bigotry.
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