Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#251

Post by anyfoo » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #168

rjkennedy98 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this misses something crucial to how most of these arrangements work: the worker is unable to put value on the gig. That is the real asymmetry. The gig worker's car wears down, requires gas, oil changes, and gets beat up by the road, but from his perspective he sees $25. Do you think Uber would even try to estimate that number?! (which they almost certainly could). Its essentially capitalization on a huge…

What happened to personal responsibility? Is that out the window as well? Or do we need intervention, similar to how parents point their kids in the proper direction to go?

Next time you get screwed, in any capacity, you should live by your words and just assume your "personal responsibility".

You bought a car that was missing a very obscure but very critical peace in its brake assembly, and now it's embedded in another car in the middle of the intersection: Whatever happened to your personal responsibility in making sure that the car was complete?

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#252

Post by Udik » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #95

Glad they're down, and hope the whole "gig economy" burns down too. Where gig economy = padding the loss of decent jobs by replacing the bottom end with desperate deals where "non employed" employees, without regular salary, benefits, company provided work tools, etc., make a pittance, while the organizing company gets a cut from millions of transactions. In some cases, no jobs is better than subsistence/dead-end/exp…

> replacing the bottom end with desperate deals where "non employed" employees ... make a pittance, while the organizing company gets a cut from millions of transactions

The funny thing here is that, apparently, the "non employed employees" were still getting more than what they actually earned the company- which therefore isn't getting a nice cut, but rather a debt, from millions of transactions. So this looks like VC-founded low end jobs.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#253

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #164

ikeyany wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they first started out in my city they offered a ride pass that put a hard limit on rides less than 20 miles at $4. Yes, $4 for anywhere within 20 miles. Then it was changed to $5. Then it was changed to $6, or instead you could UberPool for $2. Then they added a 2 minute waiting period for an UberPool. They then also changed the flat fare altogether and instead your ride pass came with something like 50% off al…

Wow I had no idea it was that low. No wonder people wants that product. Here a uber ride is the same price as taxi (because it is taxi) so 15 minutes is easily $50.

[deleted]

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#254

Post by lowdose » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

ensmartha wrote: post #146

coldtea wrote: post #95

Glad they're down, and hope the whole "gig economy" burns down too. Where gig economy = padding the loss of decent jobs by replacing the bottom end with desperate deals where "non employed" employees, without regular salary, benefits, company provided work tools, etc., make a pittance, while the organizing company gets a cut from millions of transactions. In some cases, no jobs is better than subsistence/dead-end/exp…

Not all gig companies are the same. Uber is not a real business. Nothing about hiring a driver or maintaining or running a car is cheaper now than before Uber. Uber will never be profitable unless people are willing to pay the same amount as for regular taxis or for a private driver (i.e. expensive). Airbnb on the other hand is a real and vastly profitable business. Yes there need to be tighter regulations because we…

Uber provides the network of drivers and customers. With less friction anybody can order a taxi for a fixed price that is known upfront in their app. In the old world the price of a ride was mostly determined at the end of the trip and you would be lucky if you paid a lower price than an uber.

Im not a fan of uber nor lyft, although I have to say I like the competition they offer. I hope Tesla delivers their Robotaxi and slashes the whole taxi pricing game.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#255

Post by core-questions » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

xster wrote: post #229

coldtea wrote: post #95

Glad they're down, and hope the whole "gig economy" burns down too. Where gig economy = padding the loss of decent jobs by replacing the bottom end with desperate deals where "non employed" employees, without regular salary, benefits, company provided work tools, etc., make a pittance, while the organizing company gets a cut from millions of transactions. In some cases, no jobs is better than subsistence/dead-end/exp…

I think this is what worries me about the "mainstream" debate that might be incorrectly framing the whole problem altogether. Here, the rise of the gig economy came from automation. Not in the caricature sense that there are robot automatons that serve your plates in a restaurant, but in a sense that scalable automated processes replaced human dispatchers that answers your phone calls at the taxi companies and radios…

> more and more of this planet's 'productivity' is concentrating more and more in the hands of those who produce the AI automations.

Sometimes I think folks who think like this really need to get outside more. Yes, a lot of things are being automated, but (a) consider the janky quality of automation, because it's really not mature yet even in purely-software environments where everything can be controlled, and (b) consider the raw cost of doing it vs. the productivity savings and side effects. It's just not worth it for a lot of things and won't be until we have general-purpose AI and general-purpose robotic workers that can take on human-scale jobs. Even then, it might still be cheaper to get actual people in a lot of cases.

But even if so: as someone who implements something you might call automation, like most here, I have to ask: why is it exactly that I should owe a massive amount of my economic output to those who aren't outputting anything? At what point do I simply say "fuck it" and stop working too, because some ridiculous percentage of my income has to be applied towards feeding those who won't/can't/don't do anything productive?

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#256

Post by core-questions » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

ilaksh wrote: post #247

xster wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is what worries me about the "mainstream" debate that might be incorrectly framing the whole problem altogether. Here, the rise of the gig economy came from automation. Not in the caricature sense that there are robot automatons that serve your plates in a restaurant, but in a sense that scalable automated processes replaced human dispatchers that answers your phone calls at the taxi companies and radios…

The solution is to replace the monopoly companies with public decentralized protocols that will enable a large shared network of customers to be serviced by a competing field of companies that plug into it.

This is the longest-winded name for a "free market" that I've ever heard

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#257

Post by zippergz » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

dcchambers wrote: post #123

standardUser wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between taxi fares and Uber/Lyft fares has all but vanished. People were willing to pay taxi rates all along, now they are doing so and getting what is arguably a much better service.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me it was never about the cost. It was about the ability to easily/instantly schedule a ride without having to call a phone number and wait for a ride which was notoriously unreliable, and not having to deal with cash or the classic line "my credit card machine doesn't work." Virtually all of the cab companies still around now have mobile apps and many of them have all the features…

This is 100% true for me as well. I am, in fact, willing to pay MORE for an Uber- or Lyft-like service than for a traditional cab, because the experience is generally much better.

However, I also have to acknowledge that I think I'm an outlier, because I have many friends (most of whom could easily afford it) who complain about prices every time this topic comes up. I think that as a society we'd be better off if people could truly internalize the truth of "you get what you pay for," and stop buying solely based on price, but that's not the world we live in.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#258

Post by AcerbicZero » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

numbsafari wrote: post #189

ensmartha wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all gig companies are the same. Uber is not a real business. Nothing about hiring a driver or maintaining or running a car is cheaper now than before Uber. Uber will never be profitable unless people are willing to pay the same amount as for regular taxis or for a private driver (i.e. expensive). Airbnb on the other hand is a real and vastly profitable business. Yes there need to be tighter regulations because we…

> I will never remember the car nor the driver. I will never forget the truck, driven by a young man from Haiti whose temporary protective status was days from expiring, that had a hole rusted through the floor pan. It was a scary ass ride, but I genuinely felt he was getting as much as he could before having to go home. I'll never forget the asshole from NJ who decided that, because we were both white, he cold go on…

Spot on. I've had some crazy rides, and some terrific rides, but I always treat the car and the people with respect, which hasn't lead me astray yet. If you treat your uber/lyft driver like they're glorified taxi drivers, don't be surprised when all you get out of it is a mediocre ride from point A to point B at best.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#259

Post by semi-extrinsic » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #233

jonknee wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more the massive amount of spending they do with little to nothing to show for it. They spent $457m last year on autonomous and flying cars with $0 in revenue from those projects. Maybe that will work out, but I bet every penny was ultimately wasted. Not spending billions a year on R&D certainly makes the financials look nicer. It might not attract as nice of a multiple, but it's not the ride prices that…

> They spent $457m last year on autonomous and flying cars with $0 in revenue from those projects. I sincerely hope they weren't expecting any revenue from those for the next decade or two. Anything else would be delusional.

I think both Uber, Lyft and (to some extent) Tesla have been working on autonomous cars because it's not an immediately implausible way for them to turn profitable.

I personally agree it's a multi-decade (if ever) thing, but if Uber et al. claim they'll have it in 2 years, without facts on the table it boils down to who the investors believe in.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#260

Post by conductr » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

xster wrote: post #229

coldtea wrote: post #95

Glad they're down, and hope the whole "gig economy" burns down too. Where gig economy = padding the loss of decent jobs by replacing the bottom end with desperate deals where "non employed" employees, without regular salary, benefits, company provided work tools, etc., make a pittance, while the organizing company gets a cut from millions of transactions. In some cases, no jobs is better than subsistence/dead-end/exp…

I think this is what worries me about the "mainstream" debate that might be incorrectly framing the whole problem altogether. Here, the rise of the gig economy came from automation. Not in the caricature sense that there are robot automatons that serve your plates in a restaurant, but in a sense that scalable automated processes replaced human dispatchers that answers your phone calls at the taxi companies and radios…

I’m not convinced this is even on the list of things that need to considered in the next 5 years. If we triage “the problems” this is take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning.

Climate, healthcare, immigration, requires focus to fix correctly