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Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

nytimes.com

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Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#71

Post by _bxg1 »

toasterlovin wrote: post #53
_bxg1 wrote: post #28

Fully self-driving cars hit a wall (no pun intended), and that was their only story for eventual profitability. Not surprising.

FWIW, I don’t think self driving cars would have made them a good business. Once you no longer need drivers, all you’re doing is deploying a fleet of automobiles. We already have companies that do this: taxi services and auto rental companies. They’re shitty, low margin businesses with tons of competition. The promise of Uber was being a monopoly because they were first mover on a market with network effects. Much li…

They already have an app for hailing cars, viewing their status on a map, etc. which tons of people already have on their phones, as well as an extremely recognizable brand and lots of data-center investment to back it all. Competitors would pop up, but don't underestimate the value of those things.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#72

Post by moate »

umeshunni wrote: post #41
moate wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you give me 20 bucks, and I drop it. But only one time. Does that mean I didn't lose your $20?

Let's say I take a piece of paper, tell you that it's worth $20 and give it you. And then you drop it. Did you lose $20? That's a closer analogy to SBC than losing cash.

Closer! Let's say you give me a coupon that I'm able to redeem from you later for 20 dollars.

Do you owe me $20?

This is the closest to what SBC is.

If the options are exercised, you're liable for that expense. It's a delay on the payment of the 20 dollars helping cash flow, and tax code yadda yadda, but you can't pretend that handing out vouchers for money to employees doesn't mean you're not liable for the money from an outsider assessing your financials.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#73

Post by TuringNYC »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #66
standardUser wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between taxi fares and Uber/Lyft fares has all but vanished. People were willing to pay taxi rates all along, now they are doing so and getting what is arguably a much better service.

> People were willing to pay taxi rates all along Baloney. The market size of people willing to pay taxi rates for transportation is much smaller that the market sizes currently implied by Uber and Lyft's valuation. Before Uber and Lyft, most people I know would only take taxis very occasionally, for special occasions or emergencies. Once Uber and Lyft started offering such good rates they would use ride sharing much…

Consider pool rides -- which were never part of the traditional offerings. Pool rides from Uber/Lyft lowered cost while expanding the market.

Consider all the places where you needed a taxi but wouldnt know how to hail one -- Uber/Lyft expanded the market here.

I was recently in Taiwan and needed a ride, but could not describe the address to a driver who did not speak English. Uber to the rescue -- again the market got expanded.

It isnt all about cost.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#74

Post by aresant »

rainyMammoth wrote: post #8

Uber and lyft are both on the way down. The price at which they need to operate to be profitable is not a price that most americans are ready to pay. As simple as that. For now they delay this reality by subsidizing rides in order to generate business. In some cities like San Francisco, most incentives were removed and among my friends we all stopped using Uber (unless we really have to). It simply became way too exp…

To qualify your comment:

The line item in Uber's results you want to look at here is "Excess Driver Incentives" which covers:

"Cumulative payments to a Driver could exceed cumulative revenue from a Driver as a result of Driver incentives or when the amount paid to a Driver for a Trip exceeds the fare charged to the consumer."

What's really interesting here is that year over year this number went down substantially ($21m total) for their "Ridesharing" eg their core platform is subsidizing substantially fewer rides today as a percentage of overall revenue than it was a year ago.

But that total "Excess Driver Incentives" line item exploded upwards from $221,000,000 to $544,000,000 for just their uber eats platform!

That means that your rides were somewhat subsidized and getting better, but your hamburger's ride was subsidized to the tune of a half billion dollars :)

And further qualifying this the Uber Eats business unit doubled in revenue but the incentives grew at an even faster rate.

https://investor.uber.com/news-events/news/press-release-det...

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#75

Post by munk-a »

Uber emerged into the market as a disruptor in the absolute worst sense of the world - it was challenging an entrenched industry with low efficiency (cab companies make ungodly amounts of money in some markets) but it did so by playing by a different set of rules - skirting both the disingenuous regulations put in to protect cab companies' profit and those in place for the safety of the general public. Even disregarding all of the legion HR issues at that company their business model depended on not playing fair and they're paying for it.

I like to compare them to the car sharing companies (like zipcar/car2go etc...) which managed to de-throne the entrenched rental agencies without going out of their way to break laws.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#76

Post by throwaway713 »

Stupid question: but how is this the case? The fare I pay for an Uber or Lyft seems much higher than the time/car/insurance cost of driving myself ($30-$50 for a 25 min ride to SFO). But the drivers don’t get much of that fare, so I assumed the bulk of the money went to Uber/Lyft. But they’re badly in the red... so where is the money going? I’m missing something here.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#77

Post by darkwizard42 »

astrodust wrote: post #31
Tiktaalik wrote: post #24

The recent realization by cities that these services are making traffic worse will induce more regulation which will make these services even less viable than they already are.

More cars equals more pressure to improve transit and introduce congestion taxes, two things that Uber et. al. are fighting against. It may as well be trying to hold back the sea. They can do this in the short-term, but not forever.

Both companies are in favor of congestion pricing [1]. It reduces the incentives to drive private vehicles into the area and use ridesharing (and shared modes like Pool/Shared) instead.

ninjaedit: I'm in favor of this putting pressure on public transit for sure though. In SF its abhorrent how late/delayed MUNI can be...

[1] https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/8/6/20757593/uber-lyft-tr...

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#78

Post by acchow »

standardUser wrote: post #37
rainyMammoth wrote: post #8

Uber and lyft are both on the way down. The price at which they need to operate to be profitable is not a price that most americans are ready to pay. As simple as that. For now they delay this reality by subsidizing rides in order to generate business. In some cities like San Francisco, most incentives were removed and among my friends we all stopped using Uber (unless we really have to). It simply became way too exp…

The difference between taxi fares and Uber/Lyft fares has all but vanished. People were willing to pay taxi rates all along, now they are doing so and getting what is arguably a much better service.

Uber Pool and Lyft Line opened up a new product price point for a huge number of consumers that taxis couldn't hit.

Re: Uber Posts $5.2B Loss and Slowest Ever Growth Rate

#79

Post by dougmwne »

izzydata wrote: post #33
bluetidepro wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to SF, but here in Chicago, they have been gradually getting higher each year. I have consistently taken an Uber to work every morning for about 5 years now, and I used to pay $5-7 for the ride, but now it is $9-12. I will say though, the huge benefit now is their rewards have a "price protection" [1] for some tiers that allow for a cap on that ride price, so I think it can no longer go above $10.99 or…

That seems more expensive than owning a car. Assuming 5 workdays a week and 2 rides per day then that is 40 rides a month on average which could be anywhere from $360 to $480 a month.

Using Edmunds' True Cost to Own calculator, A 2014 Honda Civic would cost about 5k per year or $416/Mo. If you don't get free parking at work or home or if you have to pay tolls, that cost could increase significantly. A parking spot at a condo could rent for $200-$400/Mo. Parking downtown could be $12-$20 per day. That daily Uber ride sounds like a deal.
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