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Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

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Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#161

Post by davvolun »

rayiner wrote: post #44
snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

You dramatically overestimate how much of an economic difference there is between MD and WV: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwpy8_glsgc/Vi5llZ9ZILI/AAAAAAAAI... . Adjusting for purchasing power, the difference in median income is just 10%. It’s like the difference between Belgium and Australia. On the flip side, there is actually quite a difference between states like New York (second poorest in the US) and Virginia. And…

> And there is a very large internal migration from states like New York to states like Virginia

I don't feel particularly qualified in this area, it's an interesting question though; but, this really needs a citation. I think you're making a very strong claim here, that there is a "very large" migration from New York to Virginia -- although I have a problem with the qualifier "states like" -- what does that mean? Blue/red states? Northeast/South? Does "states like Virginia" include Florida, because that feels like a pretty strong outlier for the rest of the South.

In any case, here's a little information I've found, which I don't have the time right now to seriously analyze to support or refute your statement

* https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/04/moves-from-so... * ttps://www.census.gov/data/tables/2018/demo/geographic-mobility/cps-2018.html

Then there's the issue of comparing median income, without including average or standard deviation in the analysis. And while I can see the value of adjusting for Regional Price Parity, I would be curious to see a county-by-county breakdown of New York state -- I would guess the burough of Manhattan ("New York County" apparently) would also be a dramatic outlier, statistically, compared to the rest of the state.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics, I need to see a lot more to feel convinced of either argument.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#162

Post by noetic_techy »

Slightly off topic. I've often wondered why so much effort is put into "sea-steading" when you can simply get enough money to buy island territories away from countries that may not want them and setup something akin to a prototype country. Sure the islands of the far north may pose some technological challenges, but probably less so then setting up something floating on the ocean.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#163

Post by SamReidHughes »

diminoten wrote: post #146
chrchang523 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore treats high-skill and low-skill immigrants quite differently. That's the centerpiece of their policy, and entirely relevant to the West. Compare Canada/Australia/NZ's race-blind (and high-volume, especially relative to their population sizes!) but points-based immigration systems, and much lower severity of populist revolt in those countries, with the problems in the US and European countries that had been…

Against the wishes of their citizens? Since when? Also, how is any of that relevant to a country that has so much more space and resources for people? The US is geographically and economically gigantic compared to Singapore, proportionally we can take on orders of magnitude more people than Singapore, so why would we try to apply the same policy? At 35 people per km^2 vs 8,100 per km^2, how on Earth could you possibl…

> so why would we try to apply the same policy?

To make the country as nice a place to live as possible.

Here is a concrete example. Look at the outmigration of California -- if there had been way less immigration, more people (that aren't descended from recent immigrants) would get to enjoy living in California, but instead it's too expensive and polluted, houses are really packed in together. Imagine how much nicer a place to live California would be if we had only admitted immigrants that can solve basic math problems.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#164

Post by allemagne »

wait-a-minute wrote: post #91
snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

The problem with this argument is that going from most of south America to any part of central America would be a large economic jump. And we know that people who come into the USA illegally tend to go towards major hubs with more economic activity and opportunity. The amount of economic migration would increase for sure. And in a situation where we already turn around over 100,000 a month for attempting to cross ill…

Where there's economic activity and opportunity that immigrants are drawn to, like you said, then that means there's an unmet demand for labor in the host country. A business that could expand, but isn't able to because it can't find workers.

Immigrants then spend the money they've earned which further stimulates the local economy and increases tax revenue for governments.

This basic reasoning is why economists are pretty united in the idea that immigration is good for citizens of host countries experiencing immigration, and real-world data has shown this over and over again.

The idea that immigration to the United States disadvantages citizens just isn't supported by evidence.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#165

Post by ghaff »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #45
snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

West Virginia is being emptied, however, with a net loss of population over time. People do leave bad economic areas for good ones over time. People don’t move to Washington from Oregon because their jobs are in Oregon and they would be subject to income taxes anyways. Really not smart if you work in Vancouver WA to live in Portland, however (income taxes are an or proposition). However, I totally agree. Contrast thi…

I did the equivalent for almost 10 years. (Lived in Massachusetts; worked in New Hampshire.) But I owned a house I liked and it didn't make sense to move.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#166

Post by davvolun »

davvolun wrote: post #135
monksy wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States has "open borders" arround the states, because it is the _United_ States. For th emost part, most of the EU has "open borders" arround their member countries. (Sometime that flexes since it's not united) As far as the diversity in culture, I would not agree with that amongst states. Not in a way of comparing say Costa Rica to Panama or the UK to France.

Having just finished re-watching Ken Burns' Civil War for the first time in 20 years or so, like a freshman psychology student who now understands the motivations of the entire world, there is a line in the documentary, stated I believe by Shelby Foote, that stuck with me > Before the war, it was said, "The United States are." Grammatically, it was spoken that way and thought of as a collection of independent states.…

re: issues with the Ken Burns documentary: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-we-need-new-civil...

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#167

Post by sjs382 »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #90
rayiner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You dramatically overestimate how much of an economic difference there is between MD and WV: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwpy8_glsgc/Vi5llZ9ZILI/AAAAAAAAI... . Adjusting for purchasing power, the difference in median income is just 10%. It’s like the difference between Belgium and Australia. On the flip side, there is actually quite a difference between states like New York (second poorest in the US) and Virginia. And…

Having driven all over both MD and WV, both in cities and country. they are _very_ different. I also think that Belgium and Australia are very different in many ways, but they're also on opposite sides of the earth, whereas, as was pointed out, MD and WV share a border. I've also been all over NY and VA and would say they are more similar compared to the WV vs MD comparison. I'm not sure where you saw that NY is the…

I've also often driven through both quite a bit when I lived up north.

I'm not sure I could tell you if I was in (non-coastal) rural MD or rural WV (same as I'm not sure I could tell you if I was in Fairmont, Cumberland or Winchester).

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#168

Post by jacquesm »

rayiner wrote: post #44
snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

You dramatically overestimate how much of an economic difference there is between MD and WV: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwpy8_glsgc/Vi5llZ9ZILI/AAAAAAAAI... . Adjusting for purchasing power, the difference in median income is just 10%. It’s like the difference between Belgium and Australia. On the flip side, there is actually quite a difference between states like New York (second poorest in the US) and Virginia. And…

> It’s like the difference between Belgium and Australia.

Which are almost on opposite sides of the planet, never mind that the one is a very small country and the other is a huge continent.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#169

Post by dheera »

maxehnert wrote: post #148
dheera wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Svalbard is an amazing, humbling place in terms of nature. The fact that once you leave town, for hundreds of kilometers in any direction there are zero humans, zero cellular reception, just nothing but you, the ice, and maybe the bears. I went there one winter and spent a week without sunlight. It was the first time in my life I went a few days without seeing the sun. A few photos: https://www.facebook.com/dheera/me…

I was looking over pictures of this place last night actually. There's a national park there too which looks other worldly. Then of course I looked at flights and it's about 40hrs of travel and $1300 so probably not making that trip in this lifetime.

Yeah so the trick I used is to find a cheap deal to Oslo, and then use Star Alliance miles to get the Oslo-Longyearbyen segment as a reward flight on SAS. It counts as a domestic EU flight as far as mileage goes.

FYI unlike mainland Norway's national parks, you cannot "randomly" go to the national parks in Svalbard. Svalbard is almost completely devoid of infrastructure (no roads outside the couple of towns) so you'd have to make a completely self-sufficient expedition across arctic terrain to get there. You also need someone with rifle skills in case of a polar bear attack, and it's required to carry a rifle and register all plans with the Governor of Svalbard to leave the town. It's possible, but definitely needs a properly-equipped team -- not a casual trip.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#170

Post by jotm »

pilsetnieks wrote: post #128
gambiting wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which was dumb then and still is - UK was never part of the Schengen agreement and has full control of its borders, it can stop anyone from entering as it pleases.

Not really, no. One of the basic tenets of the EU single market is free movement of goods and people. Schengen agreement just removes border controls. UK has the freedom to stop any non-EU citizen from entering as it pleases but so does every other EU country, including the Schengen ones.

Indeed, and it doesn't. Non-EU immigrants still outnumber EU immigrants.
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