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Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

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Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#101

Post by vixen99 »

DVassallo wrote: post #64
nostrademons wrote: post #15

Antarctica too: if you can get there, you can step onto the ice. There's a pattern here: the only places with open borders are places where you wouldn't really want to live anyway, while the places with the strictest border controls are often those that are quite desirable.

Germany, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria, and Netherlands are some of the most prosperous countries in the world, and they have an open border with 28 other countries — some of which can be easily classified as very poor and undesirable places.

And these undesirable places are ... ?

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#102

Post by HillaryBriss »

snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

Or compare Los Angeles to Beverly Hills. These two cities share a border. Median incomes are way, way higher in Beverly Hills. And LA's poor millions are free to crowd right into to Beverly Hills and just start grabbing up some of that wealth. But it barely happens at all. The two populations are not merging nearly as much as the shared border would predict.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#103

Post by ashelmire »

cojxd wrote: post #4

>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?

...why wouldn't it be? Why is a world with effectively arbitrary borders (and a huge amount of money and human effort wasted defending them) preferable to a world without borders?

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#104

Post by refurb »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #97
refurb wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why this is downvoted. A good example are the capitalist versus communist countries. Two sets of countries making different choices and ending up with different results.

No baby in history has made an informed decision about which country to be born in.

I’m responding to the comment “good and bad countries aren’t due entirely to luck”.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#105

Post by mieseratte »

diminoten wrote: post #99
mieseratte wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you understand what an open border means, and if you're getting hung up on the "legality" of it, an open border would literally make immigration legal. You're conflating the societal value of legal immigrants, which is itself questionable at times (H1-B abuse) with those of illegal immigrants which further depress wages. > "Americans are more deserving humans to non-Americans" and that is xenophobic I…

Poor Americans are not suffering because of immigration, undocumented or otherwise. Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. Undocumented immigrants would be able to climb out of poverty if they weren't being persecuted by the federal government, so the fact that they can't use services they pay for is a problem, not a solution, as these services are intended to push people up and out of poverty (to the exte…

> Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages.

They can and do.

> And yes, you did actually say you prefer American people over not Americans

I would appreciate it if you did not place words in my mouth which I have not said.

> Trying to cherry pick statistics won't get that true reason out there so maybe just say it.

Because I've witnessed first hand the problems of illegal immigration. I grew up in a community filled with them. Went to school with them. Befriended them, and watched many of them achieve citizenship. Witnessed illegal workers being paid below-legal wages, living three to a room so they could save every penny to send as remittance. I've seen them out compete the local blue collar laborers.

Sorry I'm not willing to throw aside the working class so you can acquire cheaper goods and services.

> Dang doesn't like it when these conversations get combative and protracted, so I'm going to stop replying.

Ah yes, take the moral high-road after you've attempted to assassinate my character by calling me a xenophobe.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#106

Post by _-___________-_ »

sdfjkl wrote: post #87

Nonsense. The airport has no need of additional procedures because it is gatewayed by Norway (it's not an international airport). If you arrive there by boat, things look well different: > Visiting yachts must obtain a cruising permit before arrival and make arrangements for special insurance to cover the possible cost of a search and rescue operation. Also compulsory is having a gun to protect the crew from possible…

Your quote really doesn't relate to TFA at all. "Open borders" is about immigration, whereas you're discussing insurance and self-protection requirements. Incidentally, a gun is virtually essential if you're going anywhere on Svalbard outside of built-up areas, whether you arrive by boat or not.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#107

Post by gattilorenz »

luckylion wrote: post #79
gattilorenz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's for traveling, and the same currency is quite nice, especially when visiting multiple places in one trip. But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that 's a game changer. Not to mention the agreements between European countries (e.g. If you move, there's no need to change your driving license)

> But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Is it though? I mean it's sure helpful if that's what you want to do, but it's not like that was impossible before. Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population) it seems to be a small win, easing the bureaucratic process for a small number…

No, not wealthier than average, at least looking at all the expats I've met. It is not about the money, at least for me. I refer to the feeling of insecurity you get when your studies or contract are over, you don't yet have a new one, and you might have to take all your belongings and move out of a country where you lived for years, just because you can't renew your visa. As an EU citizen outside my home country but still in the EU, I don't have that. Many PhDs from Turkey I have met ended up like that. You don't want to even risk that kind of situation.

Also in the past people moved abroad for work. Now it's easier, from a bureaucratic and economic perspective. Doesn't mean everyone WANTS to move: most people are perfectly happy living in their hometown, or at least same country, as long as you can make a living there[1]. But this should not surprise anyone, it's not that most refugees would leave their countries if they could find a job and security in their homeland .

[1] btw, I have no stats but the feeling is that most internal migration in Europe is from the poorest countries and/or social classes to the richest countries. Which, again, makes a lot of sense...

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#108

Post by Alex63 »

monksy wrote: post #98
snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

The United States has "open borders" arround the states, because it is the _United_ States. For th emost part, most of the EU has "open borders" arround their member countries. (Sometime that flexes since it's not united) As far as the diversity in culture, I would not agree with that amongst states. Not in a way of comparing say Costa Rica to Panama or the UK to France.

Canada has free movement between provinces, including Quebec, which has a different language and a different legal system. Not arguing the larger point one way or the other, but wanted to add this data point.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#109

Post by darksaints »

monksy wrote: post #98
snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

The United States has "open borders" arround the states, because it is the _United_ States. For th emost part, most of the EU has "open borders" arround their member countries. (Sometime that flexes since it's not united) As far as the diversity in culture, I would not agree with that amongst states. Not in a way of comparing say Costa Rica to Panama or the UK to France.

It's not quite so clear cut. In WA, I feel far more cultural similarity to British Columbia than I do to California or Colorado. And Central Americans easily feel more cultural similarity to other Central Americans (they were even a united federal country, sans Panama, at one point), whereas Mexico might as well be Norway to them.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#110

Post by [deleted] »

mieseratte wrote: post #105
diminoten wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor Americans are not suffering because of immigration, undocumented or otherwise. Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. Undocumented immigrants would be able to climb out of poverty if they weren't being persecuted by the federal government, so the fact that they can't use services they pay for is a problem, not a solution, as these services are intended to push people up and out of poverty (to the exte…

> Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. They can and do. > And yes, you did actually say you prefer American people over not Americans I would appreciate it if you did not place words in my mouth which I have not said. > Trying to cherry pick statistics won't get that true reason out there so maybe just say it. Because I've witnessed first hand the problems of illegal immigration. I grew up in a community…

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