The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News • Hacker News Board

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#451

Post by stcredzero » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

cowabungacode wrote: post #433

1000units wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it's not. The alt-right used anonymous web boards like this one (but not HN to my knowledge) to coordinate and celebrate mass shootings that are directly admitted to be race-focused and white-supremacist-led. This happens equally on both ends of the political spectrum, and I would not entwine "coordinate" and "celebrate" so closely. If you have any real exposure to these communities you recognize any "celebrati…

> This happens on both ends of the political spectrum No, it doesn't. The left is not a racist, hateful group and they do not coordinate and perform mass shootings. This particular problem is not shared equally by both sides.

The left is not a racist, hateful group

You should look into the beatings of the Marines going to a dance by members of Antifa. The Antifa assailants said vile, racist things to their non-white victim.

they do not coordinate and perform mass shootings. This particular problem is not shared equally by both sides.

There are calls for arming on the Far Left, and documented cases of their acquiring and training with weapons, while planning for conflict. The Dayton shooter thought of himself as Antifa.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#452

Post by fzeroracer » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

ckris wrote: post #380

cloakandswagger wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That paragraph is a smug, flowery dismissal of the kind of evidence-based discussion that happens on HN. It's passive aggressively accusing HN commenters of wrongthink and of abusing unreliable tools like "data" and "logic" to counter "humane arguments" (read: emotional arguments). It basically dismisses the role of data in debate by suggesting that it is malleable or selective--we've all probably encountered this ty…

That seems like a huge straw man. What they say is that people use data improperly on Hacker News, which is also my experience. Very frequently things like papers posted as supporting evidence don't really support the posters position. Sometimes they don't say even remotely what the poster thinks. But that takes time to figure it out, at that point it has already fulfilled its purpose and people don't care anymore. T…

This is exactly what I've seen here. I've had to read through reports and papers people have cited to see whether or not the paper supported what they were arguing. Or sometimes, people would link to incredibly biased sources whom bury the lede of the stories they cite which in turn only tangentially support what they said.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#453

Post by ethbro » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

aswanson wrote: post #390

Bartweiss wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always interesting to see a light-grey thread at the bottom of a page that's full of lucid, not-overly-aggressive political discussion. In one sense it's a shame when thoughtful, evidence-based discussion is discouraged for being off-topic. But I suspect that's ultimately what makes those discussions possible; they're happening between relatively small numbers of discussants, in a space that doesn't draw in peop…

I think there's truth in this. Political commentary is like a magnetar for the less informed; it self selects for increasingly degenerate discussion.

I think it over-selects for impassioned discussion, and consequently under-selects for admitting self ignorance.

How often do you hear "I didn't know that, and it's a good point" in political discussion? When hypothetically, there's no reason you should hear it less frequently than in scientific discussions.

One of the great casualties of modern political debate is that citizens mimic professional politicians, in that the sole mode of discourse is argumentative.

When in reality, if I'm faffing about on HN I would much rather learn something than "win."

It's not like dang steps in at the end of every debate to award the winner a gold trophy.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#454

Post by fzeroracer » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #451

cowabungacode wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This happens on both ends of the political spectrum No, it doesn't. The left is not a racist, hateful group and they do not coordinate and perform mass shootings. This particular problem is not shared equally by both sides.

The left is not a racist, hateful group You should look into the beatings of the Marines going to a dance by members of Antifa. The Antifa assailants said vile, racist things to their non-white victim. they do not coordinate and perform mass shootings. This particular problem is not shared equally by both sides. There are calls for arming on the Far Left, and documented cases of their acquiring and training with weap…

I believe I asked you a while ago to provide citations for your claims. Can you provide me some citations? Since you seem to consistently make claims that the left is as violent if not more so than the right and I'd love to see some data.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#455

Post by mushufasa » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

I liked this article, though I think it missed the best part of Hacker News. To me, Hacker News can feel like walking through Dumbledore's office -- magical and mind-bending collections of incredible devices, ideas, and oddities.

Just yesterday someone posted a comment with links to UI design libraries that I've been subconsciously wishing for in my dreams (humaans, undraw.co), and I used it in a product demo. As a self-taught technologist, HN has exposed me to SICP, functional programming, and just yesterday someone posted a book about Data Structures and Algorithms that I started reading. Dang was quoted as describing HN as a "hall of mirrors" or "fractal tree."

The author's focus on the controversial political parts of HN seems to me like going to a music festival and commenting on the food trucks. Yes, it's part of the experience, but that's not why people go and not what makes it magical.

Communicating the beauty of unfamiliar technical topics to a lay reader is much harder than politics, but the New Yorker has done well at that elsewhere (I like the Sanjay and Jeff profile). Moderation is an interesting topic in its own right, though, especially in the age of the IRA and meme-warfare.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#456

Post by krapp » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #291

krapp wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't read anything dripping fear and contempt for tech culture in the article, much less the excerpt you quoted. It seems accurate to me.

I think the way it describes discussions here could be described as "dripping fear and contempt", slightly poetic though that wording is. Consider these quotes (I posted some above too): A recent comment thread ... yielded a response likening journalism and propaganda users combed through her code on GitHub in an effort to undermine the weight of her contributions The site’s now characteristic tone ... masks a deeper…

>If you really think all that stuff is accurate, why post here at all?

One can find a community and its discourse valuable while also accepting the quirks and flaws of its culture.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#457

Post by ethbro » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #264

dunkelheit wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to e.g. twitter it may feel this way but there is definitely some discussion going on despite the efforts to keep it to the minimum. And even without directly engaging with "the other side" it is nice to know that they are still here and can provide their perspective on the other matters.

I have a sneaking suspicion that this is how the majority of productive political discussions happen - around the edges of other things. People who show up for political debate generally do so with knives drawn; you hear from the loudest people with the most solidified views, and the stuff that rises to the top is playing to the crowd instead of engaging in extended discussions. But in a rec sports team, a movie club…

It seems like there's probably a mathematical law that one could state about the probability of a substantive discussion occuring, where the result is dominated by the likelihood of a random, uninformed stranger crashing into the thread.

I feel like at less than ~ 3:1 "citizens":stranger ratios, any conversation spirals down. Because someone inevitably takes the bait, responds to stupidity, and there goes the thread.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#458

Post by abledon » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #364

crispyambulance wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I LOVE this paragraph. God-damn nails the problems of HN (and other tech-heavy web communities) like nothing else... > The site’s now characteristic tone of performative erudition— > hyperrational, dispassionate, contrarian, authoritative— > often masks a deeper recklessness. Ill-advised citations proliferate; > thought experiments abound; humane arguments are dismissed as > emotional or irrational. Logic, applied na…

From years on this site, I can't imagine why anyone would love that paragraph. It reads entirely to me in a single direction that roughly translates to: "I find it disagreeable that well thought out, logical and data driven conversations on topics with which I disagree are supported."

If anything, most non-tech people will find it 'juicy'. Someone will read it and say something akin to "good lord!" and then email the article to their friend about the "inhumane" forum they read about.

Friend will click, ad revenue will be generated.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#459

Post by 1000units » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #454

stcredzero wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The left is not a racist, hateful group You should look into the beatings of the Marines going to a dance by members of Antifa. The Antifa assailants said vile, racist things to their non-white victim. they do not coordinate and perform mass shootings. This particular problem is not shared equally by both sides. There are calls for arming on the Far Left, and documented cases of their acquiring and training with weap…

I believe I asked you a while ago to provide citations for your claims. Can you provide me some citations? Since you seem to consistently make claims that the left is as violent if not more so than the right and I'd love to see some data.

I hereby grant stcredzero permission to cite me and affirm the claims made in his above post are factually accurate.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News

#460

Post by ethbro » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:45 PM UTC

ckris wrote: post #445

cloakandswagger wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data is the best tool we have. It can be cherry-picked and tainted for sure, but I'd much prefer debates be governed by that instead of whose argument is the most "humane"/morally superior

I don't really see it though. The article seems pretty clear on what kind of discussion they think is unproductive. One can argue whether text is data, but it still has structure and meaning. When they say " ill-advised citation" or "logic, applied narrowly , is used to justify " that is what they are arguing. You own argument seem much more a moral one though. For one it doesn't even say what you said it says. For e…

I saw parent commenter as making an epistemological argument rather than a moral one.

There are two fundamentally different sources of truth: ethical consensus and physical data.

They are ultimately incompatible, in that only a single option can be your ultimate source of truth. Albeit other(s) can be valued to some degree.

The issue they took, and I would take too, with that portion of the New Yorker article is that it attacks the idea of physical data as a valid, supreme source of truth.

Consequently, the rhetorical paraphrasing of the passage into the comment dismissing nerds seems on point.

Objectively, the humanities has a poor track record of getting pissy and taking cheap shots at science as a viable supreme source of knowledge.