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Old Paris Is No More

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Re: Old Paris Is No More

#31

Post by zwaps »

tom_mellior wrote: post #28
zwaps wrote: post #25

One difference between Haussmann and others is that his buildings turned out to create one of the most beautiful cities in the world. In contrast, 20's century urbanism projects - even on a smaller scale - are almost always considered a failure ex post. In Paris itself, walk yourself through the Les Olympiades area, from Tolbiac down to Porte d'Italie, if you like an impressive testament to that fact. Some other favo…

It's been a while since I've been there and I don't know what you're referring to, so could you expand on your criticism of Les Olympiades? Not everyone here can go out for that walk right now and notice all the things you in particular don't like.

Ah sure. So it's basically one of these concepts of what a modern city should be. You have cars and traffic completely underground, on top a relative open area with shops on different levels and high rise buildings for living (as to have public space). It seems like a great idea conceptually, because it affords much space to pedestrians, green spots and still allows accessibility.

But it failed to be attractive to the intended audience - well off young workers and families. It is not a slum and never was, but it did not turn out have the demand.

If you look at it now, it seems downright ugly. There's space, yes, but it's so much concrete, so many bleak looking high rises. It certainly isn't "beautiful" in the sense of the rest of Paris (except if you appreciate that sort of architecture, which I actually do).

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#32

Post by ldng »

masklinn wrote: post #13
AdrianB1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing Paris as it is now and comparing to the photographs in the article I am happy that cleanup was performed. The old architecture was maybe interesting to some extent, but very close to a huge slum.

Note that you can also clean things up without tearing it down entirely. Many cities have retained historical centers in that style without keeping the "slum" bits, and it does makes for more interesting walking around than huge boulevards and avenues. There's an architectural movement to come back to these more human-sized city designs too: smaller streets, more mixed use, less emphasis on large (and motorised) tran…

See Strasbourg for an example of that. Center was left alone and 19th century building were built in a brand new neighboorhood.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#33

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M »

thecleaner wrote: post #5

I don't understand this romantic idea of Olden Times. I doubt any Parisian misses dying of simple dieases or just not having access to emergency care. I don't understand why people would ever romanticize with the old days. Sure, we ought to remember our history but we don't need to romanticize it. It was awful.

This. Notice the little rivulet running down the left side of the lane in the first photo? Odds are that's either urine or sewage.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#34

Post by idiocratic »

zwaps wrote: post #25

One difference between Haussmann and others is that his buildings turned out to create one of the most beautiful cities in the world. In contrast, 20's century urbanism projects - even on a smaller scale - are almost always considered a failure ex post. In Paris itself, walk yourself through the Les Olympiades area, from Tolbiac down to Porte d'Italie, if you like an impressive testament to that fact. Some other favo…

Tel Aviv has many examples of good 20th century urbanism. London Barbican is also a great example. I'm sure there are more but we'll see which ones will be true classics over time.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#35

Post by thomasfl »

zwaps wrote: post #25

One difference between Haussmann and others is that his buildings turned out to create one of the most beautiful cities in the world. In contrast, 20's century urbanism projects - even on a smaller scale - are almost always considered a failure ex post. In Paris itself, walk yourself through the Les Olympiades area, from Tolbiac down to Porte d'Italie, if you like an impressive testament to that fact. Some other favo…

Poundbury in Dorchester (UK) was nothing but plain grass in the 1990'ies. Now Poundbury is a city that has generated more new jobs than new homes. The price for real estate is 30% higher than neighbouring cities. And they have yet to experience a traffic accident. Beautiful walkable cities is good for business.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#36

Post by swebs »

zwaps wrote: post #31
tom_mellior wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been a while since I've been there and I don't know what you're referring to, so could you expand on your criticism of Les Olympiades? Not everyone here can go out for that walk right now and notice all the things you in particular don't like.

Ah sure. So it's basically one of these concepts of what a modern city should be. You have cars and traffic completely underground, on top a relative open area with shops on different levels and high rise buildings for living (as to have public space). It seems like a great idea conceptually, because it affords much space to pedestrians, green spots and still allows accessibility. But it failed to be attractive to th…

That sounds almost exactly like the Eastern Pasila neighborhood of Helsinki. I'll just quote Wikipedia:

>In the ranking of the best places where to live in Helsinki ... Eastern Pasila is ranked 92nd, out of 94 different parts of Helsinki.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#37

Post by swebs »

thecleaner wrote: post #17
keiferski wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progress is not all-encompassing; it is entirely possible to claim that 21st-century medicine is preferable to 19th-century medicine while simultaneously preferring 19th-century architecture, art, or other aspects of society. Paris today may be cleaner and safer than it's ever been, but it's also far less exciting or intellectually interesting than it was in its heyday. The prevalence of this view in the tech communi…

Intellectually interesting is not an objective thing to pursue. I believe if you look closely all modern day architecture is an intellectual marvel. Architects of today have an attention to detail that you wouldn't find in the olden days. As for SF, I would never choose to live there. A wooden old looking house for a very very high rent ? I don't see any data to support living there.

>50-60 years ago

Rent wasn't high back then.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#38

Post by dmix »

zwaps wrote: post #31
tom_mellior wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been a while since I've been there and I don't know what you're referring to, so could you expand on your criticism of Les Olympiades? Not everyone here can go out for that walk right now and notice all the things you in particular don't like.

Ah sure. So it's basically one of these concepts of what a modern city should be. You have cars and traffic completely underground, on top a relative open area with shops on different levels and high rise buildings for living (as to have public space). It seems like a great idea conceptually, because it affords much space to pedestrians, green spots and still allows accessibility. But it failed to be attractive to th…

Toronto built a complex for urban workers which was designed to be highly walkable “Towers in a Park” approach meant for 1950s young “swinging single” workers, the quintessential urban planning done by cities of the era, but before long it turned into an urban ghetto where drug dealers and petty crime thrived because there was poor access for police vehicles and other types of law enforcement with the towering buildings and narrow walkways shielding any bad behaviour.

Which is sad because it’s next to one of the nicest neighbourhoods in the city (Cabbagetown).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James_Town?wprov=sfti1

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#39

Post by ticktacktock2 »

zwaps wrote: post #25

One difference between Haussmann and others is that his buildings turned out to create one of the most beautiful cities in the world. In contrast, 20's century urbanism projects - even on a smaller scale - are almost always considered a failure ex post. In Paris itself, walk yourself through the Les Olympiades area, from Tolbiac down to Porte d'Italie, if you like an impressive testament to that fact. Some other favo…

This is unrelated to the topic, but your comment is a good occasion to learn more about what seems to me to be weird (grammatical) article usages by English speakers.

Why did you call it _Les_ Olympiades, and not Olympiades (no article) or _the_ Olympiades (article in English), or _les_ Olympiades (no capitalization of the article) ?

For Porte d'Italie, you did not add any article, i.e. Porte d'Italie and not _La_ Porte d'Italie. Why the difference?

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#40

Post by zwaps »

ticktacktock2 wrote: post #39
zwaps wrote: post #25

One difference between Haussmann and others is that his buildings turned out to create one of the most beautiful cities in the world. In contrast, 20's century urbanism projects - even on a smaller scale - are almost always considered a failure ex post. In Paris itself, walk yourself through the Les Olympiades area, from Tolbiac down to Porte d'Italie, if you like an impressive testament to that fact. Some other favo…

This is unrelated to the topic, but your comment is a good occasion to learn more about what seems to me to be weird (grammatical) article usages by English speakers. Why did you call it _Les_ Olympiades, and not Olympiades (no article) or _the_ Olympiades (article in English), or _les_ Olympiades (no capitalization of the article) ? For Porte d'Italie, you did not add any article, i.e. Porte d'Italie and not _La_ Po…

Honestly? Because I am not French and I just wrote very thoughtlessly. Sorry, no further reasoning behind it.
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