Old Paris Is No More • Hacker News Board

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#21

Post by hrktb » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:14 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #2

Contrary to what the article says, Haussmann isn’t really a controversial figure in France and much of what makes Paris one of the most beautiful and visited cities in the world is thanks to the architecture he imposed, something that few, if any, modern urbanist can claim.

Would it be self-fulfilling if we disagreed on him being controversial ?

Perhaps an aspect of it Parisian's Paris and tourist's Paris is fundamentally different, and the current leadership is more or less trying to undo a lot of what Haussman stood for to make Paris friendlier to live for Parisians. Whole blocks are closed cars to bring back shops and 'village' like environment.

Modern residential neighbourhoods are rebuilt with lacy paths, cul de sacs, pedestrian/car cohabitation, closer concentration of housing.

A lot of what Haussmann did was beneficial from a health perspective, but we know we can solve these issues in other ways, an I don't think most planners would do it the way Haussmann did if they had the choice to go back in time.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#22

Post by Reason077 » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:35 AM UTC

thecleaner wrote: post #5

I don't understand this romantic idea of Olden Times. I doubt any Parisian misses dying of simple dieases or just not having access to emergency care. I don't understand why people would ever romanticize with the old days. Sure, we ought to remember our history but we don't need to romanticize it. It was awful.

> "I don't understand this romantic idea of Olden Times. I doubt any Parisian misses dying of simple dieases or just not having access to emergency care."

Of course not. This isn't a call for a return to poverty and disease. It's about the organic neighbourhoods, architecture and street layouts that are gone forever and replaced with centrally planned layouts and homogenous buildings.

One of the reasons I think London is a better city than Paris (in my opinion, obviously - I've lived in both) is that it has, whether through accident or design, managed to retain significant numbers of it's medieval streets and diverse, centuries-old buildings while also embracing modernity.

Where as in Paris you have a rather homogenous city, mostly all built in the same era, in London you can walk a few blocks and be transported through centuries.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#23

Post by acjohnson55 » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:38 AM UTC

I can't recommend highly enough the Revolutions Podcast, which has seasons devoted to the French Revolution, the 1848 Revolutions, and the Paris Commune. Paris was ground zero of the extremely tumultuous sociopolitical transition from feudalism to republican nation-state, which eventually became the norm for most of the globe.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#24

Post by harperlee » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:38 AM UTC

hrktb wrote: post #21

cm2187 wrote: post #2

Contrary to what the article says, Haussmann isn’t really a controversial figure in France and much of what makes Paris one of the most beautiful and visited cities in the world is thanks to the architecture he imposed, something that few, if any, modern urbanist can claim.

Would it be self-fulfilling if we disagreed on him being controversial ? Perhaps an aspect of it Parisian's Paris and tourist's Paris is fundamentally different, and the current leadership is more or less trying to undo a lot of what Haussman stood for to make Paris friendlier to live for Parisians. Whole blocks are closed cars to bring back shops and 'village' like environment. Modern residential neighbourhoods are…

When thinking in historical times you should put yourself in that moment of time. Of course if someone travels back in time with current knowledge will do things in different ways than Haussmann - they know whats going to happen, they know about things Haussmann didn’t.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#25

Post by zwaps » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:42 AM UTC

One difference between Haussmann and others is that his buildings turned out to create one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

In contrast, 20's century urbanism projects - even on a smaller scale - are almost always considered a failure ex post. In Paris itself, walk yourself through the Les Olympiades area, from Tolbiac down to Porte d'Italie, if you like an impressive testament to that fact. Some other favorites in Europe to google are "Berlin Marzahn" and "Hannover Ihme Zentrum". There are of course many more.

I wonder if there are contemporary developments that will, some day, be considered truly beautiful.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#26

Post by tom_mellior » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:44 AM UTC

> There was no property-owning democracy. Everyone was dependent on the will of the landowners and the owners of the houses in Paris. In that particular context, he really took on the most powerful social group at that time, trying to offer a solution to urban problems

As someone who has had to rent in the horrible Paris market, I don't see how everyone being "dependent on the will of the landowners and the owners of the houses in Paris" has changed.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#27

Post by nelgaard » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:45 AM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #10

keiferski wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progress is not all-encompassing; it is entirely possible to claim that 21st-century medicine is preferable to 19th-century medicine while simultaneously preferring 19th-century architecture, art, or other aspects of society. Paris today may be cleaner and safer than it's ever been, but it's also far less exciting or intellectually interesting than it was in its heyday. The prevalence of this view in the tech communi…

Knowing Paris as it is now and comparing to the photographs in the article I am happy that cleanup was performed. The old architecture was maybe interesting to some extent, but very close to a huge slum.

Maybe. But had those buildings survived they would now be attractive, clean, and very expensive.

From the perspective of today the problem was that the families living in the small apartments was way too big and did not pay enough rent to maintain the buildings. They just did not have enough rich single professionals willing to pay chic apartments and studios back then. Or student with rich parents seeking a studio downtown.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#28

Post by tom_mellior » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:46 AM UTC

zwaps wrote: post #25

One difference between Haussmann and others is that his buildings turned out to create one of the most beautiful cities in the world. In contrast, 20's century urbanism projects - even on a smaller scale - are almost always considered a failure ex post. In Paris itself, walk yourself through the Les Olympiades area, from Tolbiac down to Porte d'Italie, if you like an impressive testament to that fact. Some other favo…

It's been a while since I've been there and I don't know what you're referring to, so could you expand on your criticism of Les Olympiades? Not everyone here can go out for that walk right now and notice all the things you in particular don't like.

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#29

Post by hrktb » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:46 AM UTC

harperlee wrote: post #24

hrktb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be self-fulfilling if we disagreed on him being controversial ? Perhaps an aspect of it Parisian's Paris and tourist's Paris is fundamentally different, and the current leadership is more or less trying to undo a lot of what Haussman stood for to make Paris friendlier to live for Parisians. Whole blocks are closed cars to bring back shops and 'village' like environment. Modern residential neighbourhoods are…

When thinking in historical times you should put yourself in that moment of time. Of course if someone travels back in time with current knowledge will do things in different ways than Haussmann - they know whats going to happen, they know about things Haussmann didn’t.

It's not just historic fantasy though, there was opposition to his way, but they didn't have the political clout nor could oppose centering the cities around cars.

It's not just Haussmann either, most countries had that tension around letting cars dominate or not (there was an excellent 99pi episode about these tensions [0]), it just happened that one side massively won benefiting from economics, politics and power distribution.

[0] https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-76-the-modern...

Re: Old Paris Is No More

#30

Post by trax » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 9:51 AM UTC

thecleaner wrote: post #5

I don't understand this romantic idea of Olden Times. I doubt any Parisian misses dying of simple dieases or just not having access to emergency care. I don't understand why people would ever romanticize with the old days. Sure, we ought to remember our history but we don't need to romanticize it. It was awful.

> The past had nothing good that we want to incorporate into modern society.

This is a high-gravity comment.