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China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

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Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#61

Also, we shouldn't forget that since the economic reform of 1978, China has adopted the policy of intentionally escalating wealth inequality. Please do not forget billions of worker/farmer in China still live in a third world condition, so that the upper 10% can live their bourgeois life.

The way you framed it is a bit disingenuous. The reasoning behind the policy is that the government recognizes that China back then severely lacked any modern industrious knowledge. In order to quickly catch up, China decided to pour all its resources into a couple provinces that either had existing industrious base left over from foreign occupation or had strategic locations. As well as sending the best people over seas hoping to gain whatever knowledge necessary to kick start the economy. And it's not like the government simply forgot about the billions of farmers, one of the top priority for officials are poverty alleviation. It's a key kpi for any promotion within the government.

Now you could argue the implementation is not perfect, but given the situation back then I agree with this policy, and I'd be interested to hear how you would approach this differently.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#62
post #42
post #10

China has a population of more than a billion people, the 3rd largest landmass controlled by a single sovereign entity. The only question is how they managed to fall so low that they weren't a competitive superpower. It is entirely possible that we don't know what the reason for China's rise is over the short term. I wouldn't trust any article written in English to understand the ins and outs of China's special econo…

“I wouldn’t trust any article written in English...” What if the article was written by someone from China? “Zhang Jun is Dean of the School of Economics at Fudan University and Director of the China Center for Economic Studies, a Shanghai-based think-tank.”

It's funny. I'd generally be more skeptical of an essay coming out of China because of China's ideological control. Few authors will argue contrary to the official narrative.

That said, here's another perspective on China's recent rise, translated from Chinese:

> The argument is simple: when China joined the world economy in the reform and opening era, capital flocked to China to take advantage of low-wage labor and what Qin calls China’s “low human rights advantage,” i.e., the state’s commitment to development at any cost (land-confiscation, suppression of workers’ rights, exploitation of migrant workers, etc.). Over time, China became the “world’s factory,” producing quality goods at low prices, at the expense of jobs and tax revenues in the developed world previously inhabited by the capital that had now fled to China. Despite a surplus of capital and increasingly frequent labor shortages, the naked power of the Chinese state keeps the machine running, lending the profits back to the developed economies so that the “exchange” can continue. Such debts only intensify the crisis of the developed world, as governments are already attempting to supply more “welfare” to increasing numbers of unemployed despite a fall in tax revenues.

https://www.readingthechinadream.com/qin-hui-dilemmas.html

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#63
post #42
post #10

China has a population of more than a billion people, the 3rd largest landmass controlled by a single sovereign entity. The only question is how they managed to fall so low that they weren't a competitive superpower. It is entirely possible that we don't know what the reason for China's rise is over the short term. I wouldn't trust any article written in English to understand the ins and outs of China's special econo…

“I wouldn’t trust any article written in English...” What if the article was written by someone from China? “Zhang Jun is Dean of the School of Economics at Fudan University and Director of the China Center for Economic Studies, a Shanghai-based think-tank.”

Exactly. The language of the article itself doesn't affect on the content or the credibility.

If anything, the Chinese government has higher incentive to clamp down the Chinese version as Chinese content has a wider reach and thus higher impact on the local people.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population argument makes little sense. Chinese like Indians speak a multitude of languages and have very different cultures. I don’t think there are 2 places in mainland US that have as distinct cultures as pretty much every region of China has from each other (primarily because everyone speaks English in the US, while people speak different languages in different regions of China).

Different dialects of Chinese you mean, and mandarin works well enough in most places as China also has a lot of transplants. You could love and work in Chengdu without without speaking sichuanese, for example. In India, the unifying language is English, though it isn’t as widespread in India as mandarin is in China.

> Different dialects of Chinese you mean

No, the use of the term “dialect” is propaganda from the diversity-denying central government; describing Chinese languages as “dialects” is a gross abuse of the English word “dialect”, comparable to saying that French, Portuguese, and Romanian are all just dialects of Latin. “Chinese” consists of many mutually unintelligible languages (hundreds?), each of which has multiple dialects.

Mandarin works well enough as a lingua franca because (a) there has been a tremendous effort to force it on the population and suppress local culture (e.g. forcing children to speak it in school, force mass media to use it, etc.), and (b) there has been a massive internal migration in China so that a large proportion of the population is no longer living in their native land.

In some ways it is similar to the way young people from different European countries now speak English as a common language.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#65
post #10

China has a population of more than a billion people, the 3rd largest landmass controlled by a single sovereign entity. The only question is how they managed to fall so low that they weren't a competitive superpower. It is entirely possible that we don't know what the reason for China's rise is over the short term. I wouldn't trust any article written in English to understand the ins and outs of China's special econo…

> The only question is how they managed to fall so low that they weren't a competitive superpower. Because for pretty much their entire history, anytime they tried to achieve anything, they were either conquered by an aggressive imperial power, stuck with a terrible repressive government, or both in rapid succession.

> anytime they tried to achieve anything, they were either conquered by an aggressive imperial power

It seems to me, the opium wars and the resulting partitioning was solely a fault of the Qing government. Sure, the Brits were big bullies but China was playing on a home field and could overpower invaders with sheer numbers.

Qing state was already breaking from inside by then. No wonder the didn't survive long after.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#66
(I'm just an interested amateur who reads a lot so take everything I say below with a grain of salt. I also leave things out for brevity)

Deng Xiaoping (1904–1997) should still get credit for most of what is happening now. China had multiple paths it could have followed when Deng took over, but he was a clever fellow. He made several gradual alternations to rigid socialist and Marxist doctrine and authoritarianism that separated Chinese communism from all others others. He was able to keep hardliners at bay.

1. He declared that: "Socialism means eliminating poverty. Pauperism is not socialism, still less communism." Before Deng all communist countries justified poverty and suffering of the masses as necessary part of struggle towards communist utopia. Deng threw this rationalization away. He essentially adopted the same measure stick to success as capitalism.

2. Deng recognized stuff that worked outside government. 18 households in Xiaogang Village started land reform after a serious drought in secret in 1978 and it started to spread. It was against government rules and even against party doctrine. Instead of prosecuting people Deng endorsed it. Successful land reform has been the starting point for other successful Asian countries as well (see Studwell's "How Asia Works").

3. More meritocracy and checks and balances within the communist party. Before Deng, China was always gravitating towards typical strong man communist dictatorship. There was one dictator on the top and power and orders flowed downwards. Deng adjusted the rules. Government officials were moved to work in different regions from where their personal contacts were (and opportunities to corruption were reduced). Princelings still got into powerful positions but talented newcomers also had a change. There was clear movement towards meritocracy and accountability within the communist party.

After Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 Deng's power started to wane and hardliners gained more power. The momentum of his institutional reforms has carried on but there is constant erosion. The current leader Xi seems to be a typical strongman who tries to get more and more power to himself and his inner circle and this may end all momentum for China that Deng Xiaoping created.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#67

Also, we shouldn't forget that since the economic reform of 1978, China has adopted the policy of intentionally escalating wealth inequality. Please do not forget billions of worker/farmer in China still live in a third world condition, so that the upper 10% can live their bourgeois life.

So are you challenging trickle down economics? That's debatable.

I believe at least at the early stage capitalism trickle down economics works. However, without proper checks and balance system, corruption brought by power and wealth does stop the trickle down effect.

Therefore in China where corruption is an accepted norm, it's doomed to fail. That was not originally planned though.

Maybe that's also why recently the CCP has been trying so hard to abolish religions, to keep the people's moral standard low.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#68
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, for God’s sake, no, the Cultural Revolution was not devestating to the economy. Where did you read that? During the worst year of the Cultural Revolution, China still managed to grow 8%. Large scale civil rights violations are not automatically bad for the economy. The German economy grew dramatically during the Holocaust and the best decades for the USA overlap with the mass murder of the Indians and the savage…

> No, for God’s sake, no, the Cultural Revolution was not devestating to the economy. Where did you read that? During the worst year of the Cultural Revolution, China still managed to grow 8%. I'm afraid the data doesn't back you up at all. The Chinese cultural revolution is considered the years 1966-1976. Here is the data for those years in real per capita GDP growth[0]: 7.7, -8.1, -6.6, 13.7, 16.1, 4.2, 1.3, 5.4, 0…

GDP per capita figures actually flatter the disaster that was the cultural revolution. If you starve 5% of the population and have zero births due to starvation, -12% growth becomes -7% growth per capita...

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#69
post #16
post #10

China has a population of more than a billion people, the 3rd largest landmass controlled by a single sovereign entity. The only question is how they managed to fall so low that they weren't a competitive superpower. It is entirely possible that we don't know what the reason for China's rise is over the short term. I wouldn't trust any article written in English to understand the ins and outs of China's special econo…

Your question is insightful. I think a major reason that China once fell so low is the Qing dynasty secluded itself from the outside world, and didn't catch up with the industrial revolution. So in 18xx-19xx, China was still an agricultural civilization and western countries have stepped into modern industrial form. And we know as to production efficiency, (non-modern) agriculture vs industry is like fist vs bombs. B…

This, and western countries exploited that weakness and turned China in a protectorate with actual warfare, etc.

Re: China’s liberalization and structural reform drives growth

#70
post #67

Also, we shouldn't forget that since the economic reform of 1978, China has adopted the policy of intentionally escalating wealth inequality. Please do not forget billions of worker/farmer in China still live in a third world condition, so that the upper 10% can live their bourgeois life.

So are you challenging trickle down economics? That's debatable. I believe at least at the early stage capitalism trickle down economics works. However, without proper checks and balance system, corruption brought by power and wealth does stop the trickle down effect. Therefore in China where corruption is an accepted norm, it's doomed to fail. That was not originally planned though. Maybe that's also why recently th…

>Maybe that's also why recently the CCP has been trying so hard to abolish religions, to keep the people's moral standard low.

Is there any evidence that religion actually increases the 'moral standards'?

This paper[1] suggests not:

> Religious and nonreligious participants did not differ in the likelihood or quality of committed moral and immoral acts.

[1] Hofmann W. et al. (2014), Morality in everyday life, Science. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25214626

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