Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors • Hacker News Board

Re: Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

#71

Post by liability » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 4:55 AM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #50

liability wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen tiny outriggers used for fishing,etc that are two-stroke. Maybe some jet skis too? I'm not sure. Certainly anything substantial won't be two-stroke.

As I understand it, there are increasing restrictions and calls to ban 2-stroke marine engines for smaller lakes, because the exhaust contains a fair amount of oil mist that settles on the water.

If nothing else, the noise is a nuisance on small lakes. I grew up next to a small community-governed lake on which all gas was banned. People have been using electric on that lake for ages, which is particularly feasible since it's a small lake (300 acres or so iirc). Electric for small stuff makes a ton of sense and has for a long time.

Re: Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

#72

Post by andyrebele » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:00 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #25

What this article is really saying is "Two stroke engines are outrageously nasty". Which we knew. They really are dozens of times worse for immediate pollutants (soot/particulates, hydrocarbons, NOx) than a routine car engine and catalytic converter. And they're significantly less efficient, so even their CO2 output is quite a bit higher than a gas engine of the same power. But they're a tiny market and no one has bo…

This is not 2-stroke. This is 4-stroke engines. There are no catalytic converters on marine outboard motors, so the 4-strokes are allowed to be > 100X as polluting as cars.

Re: Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

#73

Post by andyrebele » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:03 AM UTC

Steltek wrote: post #13

Relatedly, here's a 2012 video of Jamie Hyneman talking about creating an electric outboard for Mythbusters for quiet operation while filming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EV2qq2-Lck Pure makes a lot of the same claims about noise and performance. They seem to have upped the appearance though.

Before we did this outboard, I watched the Jamie Hyneman video you referenced. Because he doesn't use active thermal management of the cells, I would expect the cycle life to be ~ 300 rather than the 1500 we expect with this one. Since battery depreciation totals about 4-5X as much as electricity usage over the life of the system, not doing thermal management multiplies the cost of an outing by about 5X. The Hyneman system would effectively pollute more than gas outboards, because of how quickly the batteries would be consumed.

Re: Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

#74

Post by andyrebele » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:04 AM UTC

deelowe wrote: post #21

gok wrote: post #2

...because marine fossil fuel engines are unbelievably filthy.

No marine boat has a muffler. Guess what they use instead?

The water. So they put the noise underwater, and it sounds quieter to the operator, so they think they're approaching the fish in a stealthier manner.

Re: Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

#75

Post by andyrebele » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:06 AM UTC

13of40 wrote: post #53

I bought a new outboard for my fish-a-dinghy a few months ago, and I looked into getting an electric one. The prices are converging, but it seems like there are serious reliability issues with the (few) electric outboards currently on the market. I ended up getting a fuel-injected 4-stroke.

Most of the electric outboards have bad reputations for reliability, as you said. And the warranties are even shorter than those of gas outboards. But this one is the first to be designed from the ground up for electric, and while the warranty hasn't been announced, it will be far longer than those of gas outboards. The reason the other electric outboards break down so much is that there are weak links, borrowed from other products (like gas outboards).

Re: Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

#76

Post by jmpman » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:07 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #67

adrianN wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not very intuitive. Can you provide a longer explanation for this?

Here's a pretty decent, graspable explanation: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/142463/does-a-ti... Tires that are not slipping are not creating any force against the road surface (so they don't have to slip when coasting, but will slip while accelerating longitudinally [braking or accelerating fore/aft] or laterally [cornering]).

Would you say that a rubber belt on a pulley is slipping? I’m sure at a microscopic level there are some places where the belt isn’t making perfect contact and the rubber is slipping across the pulley, but at a macro level, the belt remains in contact with the pulley in the same place from when it initially contacts until it disconnects.

Re: Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

#77

Post by andyrebele » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:08 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #25

What this article is really saying is "Two stroke engines are outrageously nasty". Which we knew. They really are dozens of times worse for immediate pollutants (soot/particulates, hydrocarbons, NOx) than a routine car engine and catalytic converter. And they're significantly less efficient, so even their CO2 output is quite a bit higher than a gas engine of the same power. But they're a tiny market and no one has bo…

There are 15.7 million recreational power boats in the US alone (1 for every 10 households), 70% of those in the installed base are powered by outboard motors. This is not the car market, but it is not tiny.

Re: Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

#78

Post by andyrebele » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:15 AM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #23

Just tried to find out some information on their Outboard motor. The video there has got to be up there with one of the worst marketing pieces I've seen in a long time. There's nothing that gives me any info on the product, what it is, why it's different, nothing. Looks like somebody had a fun day at the lake shooting, but had no idea what the footage was to be used for, and then some poor guy in the edit bay had to…

Ha! Thanks. The video (if you're referring to the one on the web site) is an attempt to give the viewer a modicum of the feeling you get with a ride in the boat. The FAQ on the web site, and the specifications listed there, address the questions you're posing.

Re: Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

#79

Post by andyrebele » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:17 AM UTC

Accujack wrote: post #3

Unfortunately, like many vehicles electric boats are limited to new... no one offers retrofit parts, and it will take decades before enough of these trickle down to new owners for them to take the place of existing boats, even assuming the drives last that long. I'd convert my boat to electric in a heartbeat if I could retrofit the drive for a similar cost to a replacement engine/transmission... but that's still impo…

This outboard motor is 100% compatible with existing hulls, and complies with ABYC standards. That's the beauty of the boat market - a built-in API for the interface between the powertrain and the hull. The rowing club in the article is using the same hulls they've had for years, and mounting the new Pure Outboards on them.

Re: Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

#80

Post by andyrebele » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 5:19 AM UTC

mkw5053 wrote: post #42

I love renting a Duffy [1] and putting around Newport Bay. I wish there was something similar but a little more sea-worthy for the San Francisco Bay! [1] https://duffyboats.com/

We took a coaching launch like the one in this article, fitted with the Pure Outboard, from Pier 52 in SF to Alameda Island and back. (Granted, it was not the wisest move.)