Wine-dark sea • Hacker News Board

Re: Wine-dark sea

#41

Post by lqet » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 11:50 PM UTC

fluorocarbon wrote: post #38

Since I began studying Greek, the whole wine-dark thing has struck me as pretty silly. The actual phrase is οἶνοψ πόντος (oinops pontos) which means "wine-face sea." Pontos refers to the open sea, not the shallows or the sea near shore. For some reason the English-speaking world thinks it has to be translated as a color word. Maybe because it was incorrectly translated as wine-dark? But it's not exclusively a color w…

Excellent write-up, which to me makes complete sense.

Something that also struck me as strange was this remark in the Wikipedia article:

> The Bible mentions a "red horse", not far from Homer's red oxen, while honey is described using variations of green in both of these texts.

Here is a glass of honeydew honey:

http://www.honig-onlineshop.at/upload/imgproc/398479_eb.jpg

For which, in my opinion, "variations of green" is a perfectly valid description.

I would also be perfectly comfortable with describing the color of this horse as "red":

https://img.freepik.com/fotos-kostenlos/rotes-pferd-das-an-d...

Re: Wine-dark sea

#42

Post by CrazyStat » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 11:59 PM UTC

fluorocarbon wrote: post #38

Since I began studying Greek, the whole wine-dark thing has struck me as pretty silly. The actual phrase is οἶνοψ πόντος (oinops pontos) which means "wine-face sea." Pontos refers to the open sea, not the shallows or the sea near shore. For some reason the English-speaking world thinks it has to be translated as a color word. Maybe because it was incorrectly translated as wine-dark? But it's not exclusively a color w…

It's a nice theory but how do the wine-face oxen fit into it? Is it suddenly a description of color there, or are they also a dark cloudy liquid, still swirling and bubbling sightly, etc.?

Re: Wine-dark sea

#43

Post by lqet » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 12:03 AM UTC

CrazyStat wrote: post #42

fluorocarbon wrote: post #38

Since I began studying Greek, the whole wine-dark thing has struck me as pretty silly. The actual phrase is οἶνοψ πόντος (oinops pontos) which means "wine-face sea." Pontos refers to the open sea, not the shallows or the sea near shore. For some reason the English-speaking world thinks it has to be translated as a color word. Maybe because it was incorrectly translated as wine-dark? But it's not exclusively a color w…

It's a nice theory but how do the wine-face oxen fit into it? Is it suddenly a description of color there, or are they also a dark cloudy liquid, still swirling and bubbling sightly, etc.?

> Is it suddenly a description of color there?

Why not? This is poetry, not an exact science, so playing with the meaning of words is not only completely acceptable, but desirable. Why shouldn't 'wine-faced' relate to the surface texture of wine in one occasion, and to its color in another?

There certainly wasn't room for any confusion, because even if the ancient Greeks had a different understanding of colors than ours, they still knew that wine has another color than the sea (example: in our color system, wine is red, and a traffic light is red. Yet you distinctly know that a red traffic light does not have the color of wine). So it was perfectly clear that Homer meant the surface texture when referring to the sea. The Greeks also knew that there are no oxen which are liquid on the surface (as mentioned below, this may also relate to sweat), so it was perfectly clear Homer meant the color here.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#44

Post by bduerst » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 12:12 AM UTC

CrazyStat wrote: post #42

fluorocarbon wrote: post #38

Since I began studying Greek, the whole wine-dark thing has struck me as pretty silly. The actual phrase is οἶνοψ πόντος (oinops pontos) which means "wine-face sea." Pontos refers to the open sea, not the shallows or the sea near shore. For some reason the English-speaking world thinks it has to be translated as a color word. Maybe because it was incorrectly translated as wine-dark? But it's not exclusively a color w…

It's a nice theory but how do the wine-face oxen fit into it? Is it suddenly a description of color there, or are they also a dark cloudy liquid, still swirling and bubbling sightly, etc.?

It's likely he meant the oxen had reflective wet-looking faces, like the surface of the ocean was wet-looking, as in the context it was used the oxen were sweating pretty hard:

> ...but as two wine-faced oxen both strain their utmost at the plow which they are drawing in a fallow field, and the sweat steams upwards from about the roots of their horns – nothing but the yoke divides them as they break up the ground till they reach the end of the field – even so did the two Ajaxes stand shoulder to shoulder by one another.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#45

Post by fluorocarbon » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 12:12 AM UTC

CrazyStat wrote: post #42

fluorocarbon wrote: post #38

Since I began studying Greek, the whole wine-dark thing has struck me as pretty silly. The actual phrase is οἶνοψ πόντος (oinops pontos) which means "wine-face sea." Pontos refers to the open sea, not the shallows or the sea near shore. For some reason the English-speaking world thinks it has to be translated as a color word. Maybe because it was incorrectly translated as wine-dark? But it's not exclusively a color w…

It's a nice theory but how do the wine-face oxen fit into it? Is it suddenly a description of color there, or are they also a dark cloudy liquid, still swirling and bubbling sightly, etc.?

Because it can be a color term, it's just not always a color term. Just like in English I can use the word "metallic" to refer to a taste, color, smell, or feeling depending on context.

Translate it literally as "wine-face" and it usually makes sense in English. In the case of the sea, it's referring to its dark wine-like surface. In the case of the cows, it's their ruddy wine-like color. There's also an element of the cows being strong, since wine can create an invigorating feeling in the drinker.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#46

Post by krilly » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 12:14 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #41

fluorocarbon wrote: post #38

Since I began studying Greek, the whole wine-dark thing has struck me as pretty silly. The actual phrase is οἶνοψ πόντος (oinops pontos) which means "wine-face sea." Pontos refers to the open sea, not the shallows or the sea near shore. For some reason the English-speaking world thinks it has to be translated as a color word. Maybe because it was incorrectly translated as wine-dark? But it's not exclusively a color w…

Excellent write-up, which to me makes complete sense. Something that also struck me as strange was this remark in the Wikipedia article: > The Bible mentions a "red horse", not far from Homer's red oxen, while honey is described using variations of green in both of these texts. Here is a glass of honeydew honey: http://www.honig-onlineshop.at/upload/imgproc/398479_eb.jpg For which, in my opinion, "variations of green…

The reason 'red' is acceptable to describe the horse, despite the fact that it is clearly not red, is because the concept of orange only entered the English languange relatively recently. Before that it was described as red, and some vestiges of this remain (e.g. redhead).

Imagine a continuous colour wheel. Most people from the same culture today will draw the same boundaries between colors. Red, purple, blue, green, etc. What is to say these boundaries are objective? If in our own language red through orange was once referenced with a single word, why shouldn't red through blue have a single name in ancient Greek?

Re: Wine-dark sea

#47

Post by Iv » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 12:31 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #43

CrazyStat wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a nice theory but how do the wine-face oxen fit into it? Is it suddenly a description of color there, or are they also a dark cloudy liquid, still swirling and bubbling sightly, etc.?

> Is it suddenly a description of color there? Why not? This is poetry, not an exact science, so playing with the meaning of words is not only completely acceptable, but desirable. Why shouldn't 'wine-faced' relate to the surface texture of wine in one occasion, and to its color in another? There certainly wasn't room for any confusion, because even if the ancient Greeks had a different understanding of colors than o…

> (example: in our color system, wine is red, and a traffic light is red. Yet you distinctly know that a red traffic light does not have the color of wine)

But would you call the green light blue? Because I know some Japanese who do. Green/Blue is not as clear cut in some colors. And for many in Japan, the shinto gates (The torii) is not red. It is of its own color, between red and orange. I see it is often translated into "vermillon", which, let's admit, we would just call red.

So is it possible that in the distant past, a civilization would consider dark red and dark blue the same color? That instead of one "blue" category they would mix several other unnamed colors?

I can believe it. I think most civilizations will differentiate between the color of the blood and the color of vegetation but apart from that, I can imagine a very different palette.

And while I consider it unlikely just given the elements we have, let's not be totally closed to the possibility that the biological color perception changed since then. Arguably, nowadays, color-blindness is a bigger handicap than a slight myopia. It hinders you in several artistic or design-oriented careers. Even had a classmate struggling with resistors color code (in the good old days of the DIP components). Myopia will just be a problem for pilots and is easily corrected. Has it been the case for long enough to apply a selective pressure? I doubt it but am opened to being proven wrong.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#48

Post by michaericalribo » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 12:32 AM UTC

Then there are the Homeric epithets, which recur and are believed to be a mnemonic device...so "wine-dark sea" is not only a descriptor, but an anchor to remember the surrounding verse.

I believe this was a 20th-century discovery, no less, and even "ancient" texts have dimensions that are easily overlooked

Re: Wine-dark sea

#49

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 12:52 AM UTC

bhaak wrote: post #22

One of the proposed explanations is that the ancient Greeks didn't have a fully developed mental model of colors and used them more along on a light/dark axis than dividing the colors into strictly separate color terms (also remember that bright pure colors weren't a thing). I can relate to this idea as my memories are not filled with vivid colors. They are also not completely colorless as I remember there being colo…

There's been a lot of linguistic research into color naming across languages in general, specifically the claim that languages acquire more colors as they evolve, but it remains a controversial topic. Here's a primer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity_and_the_...

Re: Wine-dark sea

#50

Post by lqet » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 1:03 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #47

lqet wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it suddenly a description of color there? Why not? This is poetry, not an exact science, so playing with the meaning of words is not only completely acceptable, but desirable. Why shouldn't 'wine-faced' relate to the surface texture of wine in one occasion, and to its color in another? There certainly wasn't room for any confusion, because even if the ancient Greeks had a different understanding of colors than o…

> (example: in our color system, wine is red, and a traffic light is red. Yet you distinctly know that a red traffic light does not have the color of wine) But would you call the green light blue? Because I know some Japanese who do. Green/Blue is not as clear cut in some colors. And for many in Japan, the shinto gates (The torii) is not red. It is of its own color, between red and orange. I see it is often translate…

> But would you call the green light blue? Because I know some Japanese who do

But that was not my point. Obviously, color categories are not fixed and may differ from culture to culture, yet you still know that "wine" (classified as red in western culture) has a different color than a traffic light. It does not matter that Japanese would call the green light blue, the same color they would (probably) say a clear summer sky has, because just like you would recognize that a red traffic light has a different color than red wine, Japanese would recognize that a clear-blue sky has a different color than a "blue" traffic light.

Every time this color discussion comes up, I am surprised people find this so interesting. Of course there are different names for different things in different languages / cultures. Of course these names often have a wider or a narrower set of semantic meaning than in your native language / culture, and this will of course lead to some "strange" word / concept / category overlap. But this is just unavoidable if unrelated groups of people build a categorical representation of a continuous world in their brains.

If you have ever tried to learn a single foreign language, you instinctively know this, and these color category differences shouldn't come as any surprise to you.