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Wine-dark sea

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Re: Wine-dark sea

#11

Post by pavlov »

Isn’t “wine dark” used in Homer to describe the sea at dawn? I’ve associated it to mean dark with a hint of purple from the rising sun — not literally ruby-colored.

It seems odd that English-speaking people would get overly literal about this expression when English itself is full of similar exaggerative coloring: someone “ashen-faced” is presumably not light gray and devoid of hue all over their skin, etc.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#13

Post by asark »

pavlov wrote: post #11

Isn’t “wine dark” used in Homer to describe the sea at dawn? I’ve associated it to mean dark with a hint of purple from the rising sun — not literally ruby-colored. It seems odd that English-speaking people would get overly literal about this expression when English itself is full of similar exaggerative coloring: someone “ashen-faced” is presumably not light gray and devoid of hue all over their skin, etc.

It's not like bodies of water are always blue anyway. The ocean's not. I've seen the same broad stretch of the upper Mississippi appear anywhere from pale green to battleship grey, along with several shades of blue including almost sapphire. The lower part of the Missouri's mostly brown or grey. I'd assume anyone who described it as any kind of blue without apparent purpose or calling attention to how unusual that is had simply never seen it.

The later example in TFA of the Bible using the phrase "red horse" is an odd one. There are red horses. Hell Steinbeck wrote a novella titled "The Red Pony". They're pretty common. What's the big deal?

Re: Wine-dark sea

#14

Post by jrumbut »

Raphmedia wrote: post #9
vinceguidry wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also maybe they literally had blue wine?

Red wine will turn blue when the pH gets too alkaline. You can also make actual blue wine using the grapes to make a dye, see Gïk's blue wine.

They also, to my understanding, mixed grape varieties, vintages, water, and perhaps other things in their wine, so it was quite a different beverage.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#15

Post by wazoox »

reb wrote: post #3

Every time this wanders across the front page of HN, I wonder: What are the chances this is more a description of the murkiness or opacity of a dark sea (compared to water near the shore) rather than the literal color of the water?

As someone having sailed on the Mediterranean Sea, I never questioned the comparison of the colour of deep sea with red wine. Also remember that Homer didn't drink wine in glass, but in earthenware, often glazed black. I'm pretty sure a red wine seen in a black crater is very dark indeed, like the deep sea.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#16

Post by gradstudent »

reb wrote: post #3

Every time this wanders across the front page of HN, I wonder: What are the chances this is more a description of the murkiness or opacity of a dark sea (compared to water near the shore) rather than the literal color of the water?

This comment should be higher. That a poet should want to compare the viscosity and opacity of the sea to wine is a much more simple explanation -- and to my mind much more likely -- than exotic theories to explain why ancient Greeks didn't have the colour blue.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#17

Post by robotomir »

reb wrote: post #3

Every time this wanders across the front page of HN, I wonder: What are the chances this is more a description of the murkiness or opacity of a dark sea (compared to water near the shore) rather than the literal color of the water?

As discussed previously, people are seriously overthinking this. Everyone who has been on a boat knows that the deep water is almost black. Like, you know, thick red wine in a ceramic container.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#18

Post by jrumbut »

I will recommend, as I have before, the Lattimore translation of the Iliad which leaves in the wine dark sea, wine dark oxen, winged words (my favorite Homerism), and glancing eyed helmets.

It preserves the fact that you are reading something that comes from a world no one alive today truly understands, even at a vocabulary level.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#19

Post by tony_cannistra »

Man, one of the teachers who has made the most significant impact upon me was my middle school Latin teacher back in Providence (we translated Homer from Latin). She had such a passion for the language, and for idioms like this, that it was infectious, even to a bunch of shithead middle schoolers. I still get a little pang of excitement when I read this phrase, such was the drama of translating the Iliad. Word-for-word it was an adventure.

Re: Wine-dark sea

#20

Post by klez »

googleanalytics wrote: post #12

https://medium.com/@skallasp/homers-wine-dark-sea-faq-15004a...

Great read, but I take issue with a passage unrelated to the issue at hand

> This would explain the obsession with mixing wine and water when it is is unheard of today.

In Italy we still mix water with wine, especially when drinking during a meal. It's not like we do this all the time, but it's a thing.

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